Humber, Daimler, Marmon-Herrington and that lot

[Dandelion]

The UK/CW quite obviously persisted in the use of wheeled armour for their recce needs, at least operational such. Having noted this for many years I feel the time has come to actually learn why and how. How did these recce units operate, what did small scale recce tactics and modus operandi look like? What was the terrain capacity of these cars? Although recce along the road following the axis of advance would be the norm, this cannot have been the full extent of the capacity of UK/CW Recce units. Or was it?

Yours

Dandelion

PS. Yes I am bombarding the forum. You're not getting away with this apathetic loitering in threads of humble qualities or ill repute, just because it's summer.

[Dandelion]

The UK/CW quite obviously persisted in the use of wheeled armour for their recce needs, at least operational such. Having noted this for many years I feel the time has come to actually learn why and how. How did these recce units operate, what did small scale recce tactics and modus operandi look like? What was the terrain capacity of these cars? Although recce along the road following the axis of advance would be the norm, this cannot have been the full extent of the capacity of UK/CW Recce units. Or was it?

Yours

Dandelion

PS. Yes I am bombarding the forum. You're not getting away with this apathetic loitering in threads of humble qualities or ill repute, just because it's summer.

[Andreas]

A look at the TO&E of a Commonwealth recce battalion should prove instructive in terms of the capabilities of the formations. Found e.g. in 'Salt's Snippets'. If you don't have the USOrg and Britorg documents, email me (Profile) and I send the documents to you.

From one of Delaforce's books, it appears that the modus operandi during the dash across northern France was as follows:

1) Recce party consisting of ACs motors along.

2) They run into an ambush (noted by one of the Humbers disintegrating under shell impact, with the driver usually a casualty)

3) They bring up the assault platoon backed by the 3" mortars and Vickers to dislodge the Germans/Russians/Hungarians/Volksdeutsche/Moongoose opposing them

4) Lather, rinse, repeat

5) If 3) does not work because the opposition is rather determined, a set-piece battle would develop involving the lead infantry battalion of the lead brigade.

Just like German recce formations, Commonwealth recce units were also used for flank protection in static situations.

Apparently the book to read is 'Only the enemy in front'. The scenario to play is CMBO (with recent CMAK conversion) '49th Recce', or another one of my CMBO scenarios, whose name now escapes me (it might be 'Another Village').

Somebody else will be along shortly explaining why I am wrong, why my scenarios suck, and what the X-country capabilities of the Marmon-Herrington really were.

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas]

A look at the TO&E of a Commonwealth recce battalion should prove instructive in terms of the capabilities of the formations. Found e.g. in 'Salt's Snippets'. If you don't have the USOrg and Britorg documents, email me (Profile) and I send the documents to you.

From one of Delaforce's books, it appears that the modus operandi during the dash across northern France was as follows:

1) Recce party consisting of ACs motors along.

2) They run into an ambush (noted by one of the Humbers disintegrating under shell impact, with the driver usually a casualty)

3) They bring up the assault platoon backed by the 3" mortars and Vickers to dislodge the Germans/Russians/Hungarians/Volksdeutsche/Moongoose opposing them

4) Lather, rinse, repeat

5) If 3) does not work because the opposition is rather determined, a set-piece battle would develop involving the lead infantry battalion of the lead brigade.

Just like German recce formations, Commonwealth recce units were also used for flank protection in static situations.

Apparently the book to read is 'Only the enemy in front'. The scenario to play is CMBO (with recent CMAK conversion) '49th Recce', or another one of my CMBO scenarios, whose name now escapes me (it might be 'Another Village').

Somebody else will be along shortly explaining why I am wrong, why my scenarios suck, and what the X-country capabilities of the Marmon-Herrington really were.

All the best

Andreas

[JasonC]

Recce is all about flooding a dense road net with handfuls of lightly armored vehicles. Battalions along major axes subdivide into companies along secondary ones and platoons along every road and path.

The idea is always to find which roads are held and which are open. Light armor allows the most modest roadblocks to be brushed aside and the recce continued until at actual battle position is reached.

Recce has no business trying to move an actual battle positions once it is found. Occasionally they were pressed into it anyway, all sides, because of a scarcity of proper arms.

Routes besides roads are not interesting. They don't take large scale traffic without effort and fighting, and the whole point is to grab the free stuff. When off road maneuver is necessary, it is because the roads are blocked by full battle positions. Which means the recce job is over and the real combat arms have "point".

[JasonC]

Recce is all about flooding a dense road net with handfuls of lightly armored vehicles. Battalions along major axes subdivide into companies along secondary ones and platoons along every road and path.

The idea is always to find which roads are held and which are open. Light armor allows the most modest roadblocks to be brushed aside and the recce continued until at actual battle position is reached.

Recce has no business trying to move an actual battle positions once it is found. Occasionally they were pressed into it anyway, all sides, because of a scarcity of proper arms.

Routes besides roads are not interesting. They don't take large scale traffic without effort and fighting, and the whole point is to grab the free stuff. When off road maneuver is necessary, it is because the roads are blocked by full battle positions. Which means the recce job is over and the real combat arms have "point".

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

The UK/CW quite obviously persisted in the use of wheeled armour for their recce needs, at least operational such. Having noted this for many years I feel the time has come to actually learn why and how. How did these recce units operate, what did small scale recce tactics and modus operandi look like? What was the terrain capacity of these cars?

[snips]

Close recce, by which I mean recce at unit level, was carried out by tracked vehicles, mostly -- the carrier platoon in the infantry battalion, and the recce troop (typically mounted in turretless Honeys in NWE 1944) in an armoured regiment.

Formation recce for a division was provided by a specialist unit. In the case of an infantry division, this would be a regiment (battalion before the June 1942 nomenclature change) of the Reconnaissance Corps, mounted in a mixture of Light Recce Cars and carriers, and including mortar and anti-tank gun platoons. In the case of an armoured division, this would be an armoured reconaissance regiment, which in NWE 1944 would probably be mounted in Cromwells.

The kind of recce vehicles you seem to have in mind do not really come in until we reach higher formation, whose recce needs were provided by armoured car regiments RAC. These are supposed to operate to a considerable depth, so while "recce by stealth" is the guiding principle, each squadron has, as Andreas has indicated (and using NWE 1944 orgs again) a heavy (75mm) troop for making decent-sized bangs and a support (assault) troop for dismounted work and simple assault pioneer tasks.

I believe that the basic tactics have not changed much from that day to this. Movement is conducted in one of three colour-coded states, red, amber and green, according to the likelihood of contact, with red being the most cautious. Cars (they aresstill called "cars" in the British Army, even when tracked) tend to operate in pairs, bounding or stepping up according to the possibilities of the terrain. While one car watches and covers, the other will move at top speed to the next piece of cover, slowing just before it reaches it to creep in. Dismounting to reconnoitre is quite common.

Moving along defined routes, the evolutions "snake" and "herringbone" are still used now and I think have WW2 origins. In a patrol snake, the last vehicle bounds to the head of the column, and as soon as it has halted the new last vehicle bounds to the head of the column, and so on forever. In herringbone, as the name implies, vehicles drive into fire positions on alternate sides of the road.

All this leaves out "Phantom", the GHQ Liaison Regiment, who were part of the RAC but classified as special forces. They reported direct to Army Group, and I think their function was (as the "liaison" designation implies) largely to keep the high command in the picture without having to wait for reports to filter up from the sharp end -- as Martin van Creveld would put it, to provide the high commander with a "directed telescope".

All the best,

John.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

The UK/CW quite obviously persisted in the use of wheeled armour for their recce needs, at least operational such. Having noted this for many years I feel the time has come to actually learn why and how. How did these recce units operate, what did small scale recce tactics and modus operandi look like? What was the terrain capacity of these cars?

[snips]

Close recce, by which I mean recce at unit level, was carried out by tracked vehicles, mostly -- the carrier platoon in the infantry battalion, and the recce troop (typically mounted in turretless Honeys in NWE 1944) in an armoured regiment.

Formation recce for a division was provided by a specialist unit. In the case of an infantry division, this would be a regiment (battalion before the June 1942 nomenclature change) of the Reconnaissance Corps, mounted in a mixture of Light Recce Cars and carriers, and including mortar and anti-tank gun platoons. In the case of an armoured division, this would be an armoured reconaissance regiment, which in NWE 1944 would probably be mounted in Cromwells.

The kind of recce vehicles you seem to have in mind do not really come in until we reach higher formation, whose recce needs were provided by armoured car regiments RAC. These are supposed to operate to a considerable depth, so while "recce by stealth" is the guiding principle, each squadron has, as Andreas has indicated (and using NWE 1944 orgs again) a heavy (75mm) troop for making decent-sized bangs and a support (assault) troop for dismounted work and simple assault pioneer tasks.

I believe that the basic tactics have not changed much from that day to this. Movement is conducted in one of three colour-coded states, red, amber and green, according to the likelihood of contact, with red being the most cautious. Cars (they aresstill called "cars" in the British Army, even when tracked) tend to operate in pairs, bounding or stepping up according to the possibilities of the terrain. While one car watches and covers, the other will move at top speed to the next piece of cover, slowing just before it reaches it to creep in. Dismounting to reconnoitre is quite common.

Moving along defined routes, the evolutions "snake" and "herringbone" are still used now and I think have WW2 origins. In a patrol snake, the last vehicle bounds to the head of the column, and as soon as it has halted the new last vehicle bounds to the head of the column, and so on forever. In herringbone, as the name implies, vehicles drive into fire positions on alternate sides of the road.

All this leaves out "Phantom", the GHQ Liaison Regiment, who were part of the RAC but classified as special forces. They reported direct to Army Group, and I think their function was (as the "liaison" designation implies) largely to keep the high command in the picture without having to wait for reports to filter up from the sharp end -- as Martin van Creveld would put it, to provide the high commander with a "directed telescope".

All the best,

John.

[John Kettler]

Here's a site specifically devoted to WW 2 American armored recon troops, what we called, appropriately,

mechanized cavalry. Looks good so far. Must've been, seeing as how the author got his Master's as a result.

http://www.louisdimarco.com/mecz_cavalry_doctrine.htm

Here's a terrific example of how excessively exciting the screening mission can become.

http://louisdimarco.com/2ndcavlune.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[ July 30, 2006, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[John Kettler]

Here's a site specifically devoted to WW 2 American armored recon troops, what we called, appropriately,

mechanized cavalry. Looks good so far. Must've been, seeing as how the author got his Master's as a result.

http://www.louisdimarco.com/mecz_cavalry_doctrine.htm

Here's a terrific example of how excessively exciting the screening mission can become.

http://louisdimarco.com/2ndcavlune.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[ July 30, 2006, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Andreas:

or another one of my CMBO scenarios, whose name now escapes me (it might be 'Another Village').

Hasselt, which at one time I dubbed it "the unwinnable scenario", but have since changed my mind after playing the Maltot conversion.

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Andreas:

or another one of my CMBO scenarios, whose name now escapes me (it might be 'Another Village').

Hasselt, which at one time I dubbed it "the unwinnable scenario", but have since changed my mind after playing the Maltot conversion.

[Andreas]

In the case of Maltot, that's intentional. If it is still unwinnable, you did well at converting it.

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas]

In the case of Maltot, that's intentional. If it is still unwinnable, you did well at converting it.

All the best

Andreas

[John Kettler]

Here's a little of that "flooding" to which JasonC was referring. Same site has another shot of a herd of M-8s and M-20 ACs, but that one was blurry. This

shot is crisp, clear and up close.

http://www.ceris-normandie.com/archivesnormandie/PhotosHD/p012094.jpg

Regards,

John Kettler

[ August 02, 2006, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[John Kettler]

Here's a little of that "flooding" to which JasonC was referring. Same site has another shot of a herd of M-8s and M-20 ACs, but that one was blurry. This

shot is crisp, clear and up close.

http://www.ceris-normandie.com/archivesnormandie/PhotosHD/p012094.jpg

Regards,

John Kettler

[ August 02, 2006, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]