rune Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 Am working on a scenario where the South African's fought the Herman Goering Division at La Foce on 26 June 1944. Anyone have any information on the battle? I got some nice photos and map for the area. [Tuscany, La Foce was an estate about 1/2 way between Rome and Florence, is a hilly valley]. Yes, I know of the book by Iris, the wife of the owner of the Estate. However, I need more information on the battle there. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 rune, Do you have/can you get the below book? It's a full blown history of the HGD (has many maps and OOBs). Tried the short form link, but couldn't get it to work. http://www.angelraybooks.com/books/jjfpub/0004jj.htm Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Originally posted by John Kettler: rune, Do you have/can you get the below book? It's a full blown history of the HGD (has many maps and OOBs). Tried the short form link, but couldn't get it to work. http://www.angelraybooks.com/books/jjfpub/0004jj.htm Regards, John Kettler German divisional histories are usually crap as far as scenario fodder goes; JJ Fedorwicz (the publisher mentioned above) translated the history of the Grossdeutschland into English. Despite being perhaps the most famous of the German divisions (they had their own propaganda company, and have had several illustrated volumes devoted to them - Squadron-Signal did two seperate volumes on them, Spearhead did one, Spezzano did a terrific one, and Spaeter did one as a companion to the three volume official text history), no where does it seem like any of the historians could be bothered to actually come up with decent maps showing anything smaller than a regiment. Not to mention the one-sided nature of the histories, being drawn from official war diaries and reminiscences of German veterans (only). They are long on individual heroics but extremely vague on details of terrain, forces, equipment, and especially details of enemy forces engaged. Until someone takes the time to write up useful histories (and translating same into English), I don't think the "official histories" will be of much value to scenario designers. I certainly wouldn't invest in any of the Fedorwicz titles sight unseen, based on the works I have read personally. Unless John is giving the book a recommendation based on a careful reading of the work in question? I am sure there must be SOME exceptions out there. Rune, you need to start doing primary research - I would suggest getting a contact at the Bundesarchiv and get your hands on actual after-action reports and the maps that go with them. Trouble with that is that many records were lost during the war. Another source would be German veterans organizations. I recently laid hands on a copy of the War Diary for my own battalion but - here is another problem for the researcher. The War Diarist for the Calgary Highlanders was very frank in some of his opinions of certain personalities, and the museum curator has stated a desire that this document be used only for personal research (I agree with his sentiments). You may find that even primary source material is unaccessible due to old wounds or a desire to protect officers who come off badly in AARs, etc. It is also not a stand alone source, naturally - I don't have the actual maps - but luckily our regimental history did have decent maps done which work in conjunction. If I wanted to I could get the actual terrain maps from the regimental museum, as they have a goodly holding. I would suggest a look into some German sources for similar materials. If nothing else, delving through original stuff will free you of the British and American tendencies of anglicizing unit designations to their own peculiar methods and get you a grasp on proper nomenclature. The same goes for Allied sources, naturally; since the majority of them spoke English, and there is a wide network of veteran's groups and interest groups (ie if you ever want to do a 101st Airborne scenario, Mark Bando is the guy to visit at Trigger Time - a walking text book on that Division in WW II) the designer's job is somewhat easier. [ March 23, 2004, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Reposted from Kettlers thread: ************ Rune, have you had a look at the relevant British Official History (by Molony and/or Playfair)? While they understandably concentrate on British activities, they do give good coverage of the other Allies and the opposing German forces. They usually has fairly useful maps too (I see you have a topo already, but the OH will give you position of forces, units, thrusts, etc). Let me know if you don't have access to them. ************ Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 rune, I had a bunch of other goodies identified for you, but there was a board problem, happily now fixed, and couldn't. No, I haven't read the book I cited. I have, though, had occasion to go through some of the other titles from the firm and would welcome donations, notably the book covering the Panzerjaeger unit which operated Ferdinands, Elephants, and Jagdtigers. The photographic content alone is incredible (mostly unpublished photos from the veterans private collections), let alone learning that a specific commander's vehicle hit a mine and had to be towed by three 18 ton Famos, or that another one had a transmission failure and was destroyed by the crew. Believe this firm was also responsible for the impressive TIGERS IN COMBAT and TIGERS IN THE MUD hardcover books. Googling "6th South African Armoured Division" (was that the one?) kicked up all sorts of marvels, including extensive lists of WW II holdings (war diaries!) in the South African military archives, Michael Dorosh's detailed OOB for South African units, the personal memoirs of a South African combat historian, Erickson, in Italy (book offered has maps and photos, seems totally on point), and much else. A site called www.world-war-2-history.com (verified; see Campaigns) has an online official U.S. account with photos and topo maps of the Italian campaign, but unless I was too tired, I didn't see La Foce mentioned. The 6th SA Armoured Division and HGD showed up repeatedly, though. Googling "Battle of La Foce" was largely a bust. The Iris book came up, but there was also a good sized A.C. Black travelogue excerpt with some useful geographic, structural and place name info for the estate and surrounds. Hope this helps. Regards, John Kettler [ March 23, 2004, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Fedorwicz is indeed the publisher of the Tiger books. I know what you mean about being able to afford his stuff. He is simply translating books from German into English that he knows will have a wide appeal (especially picture books). Unfortunately, grog types don't seem to be on his radar, so detailed tactical analyses, etc. are few and far between on his plate. Understandably, given his focus and the fact he is in the biz to make money. As far as casual reading goes, Fedorwicz produces nice stuff, and there are some detailed works with a technical side (vehicles, uniforms, etc.). But anything like detailed history seems not to be on his catalogue listing? One should try posting also at Feldgrau.net and Marcus Wendel's Third Reich site, there must be some HGPD experts out there somewhere. I could give you the info on their clock face vehicle marking system but that is about it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted March 24, 2004 Author Share Posted March 24, 2004 John, thanks for the link, it added a little to the battle. JonS, can you see what you can dig up? Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Sure. It'll be a few days though - expect something over the weekend. Jon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted March 24, 2004 Author Share Posted March 24, 2004 There were a kiwi unit next to the South Africans, so you might find something that way. Also the 6th had the following units in the area... Witwatersrand Rifles/de le Rey (WR/DLR) First City/Cape Town Higlanders (FC/CTH) Royal Natal Carbineers (RNC) Imperial Light Horse/Kimberley Rifles (ILH/KimR) 1st Scots Guards (1SG) 3rd Coldstream Guards (3CG) 5th Grenadier Guards (5GG) They also had the British 24th Guard Brigade assigned to them. I have good to&es, but need to know what was actually at La Foce. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 rune, Am going to post this in brief form then go back and edit it. I keep losing things when I hop to another page. Here are some links to aid your cause. OOB 6 SA Armd Div; site has lots of material in addition, including online version of rare Allied postcampaign analysis for Italian Campaign. http://www.milhist.net/ordbat/6saarmddiv.html Archives in Pretoria http://www.sun.ac.za/mil/mil_history/military_archives_ww2.htm Michael Dorosh's research on South African Divisions http://members.shaw.ca/madorosh/divssa.htm And here's the link to the South African combat historian Eric Axelson's book on his service with 6 Sa Armd Div in Italy 1944-45. Item 318. http://www.selectbooks.co.za/Catalogue27/27NewSA.html Somewhere in the Google list these are from there's a link to the South African Military History Society's (SAMHS) research help request BBS. Hope these help. May add more later. Regards, John Kettler [ March 24, 2004, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 What is nice is Michael's stuff matches what I have for SA. I also know that teh 6th had a glut of vehicles and had more then the standard 3 per section, and they used Stuart Kangeroos for platoon HQs, due to the glut. Still trying to find which unit was involved at the fighting at La Foce, and if the fighting got up to the Estate building itself. The valley is wooded, the estate has massive gardens, and small smalls set among the rolling hills of the valley. Still trying to get the Geman information also, but not having luck with the German archives. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 rune, Have just discovered that another of the dropped items which somehow didn't post is the one which could easily solve many of your problems. From the same Google search results, it is the official South African military history volume covering the Italian Campaign. No, you aren't hallucinating! Will see if I can find it again. There are lots of online sites dealing with the La Foce Estate and surrounds, since it's a huge tourist attraction. Many have photos which may be useful. Here's a thread I found with some specific information on the type of Sherman used by the 6th SA Armd Div. http://www.wargamesdirectory.com/html/forum/topic.asp?ID=2230&Page=3&txtSearch= Regards, John Kettler [ March 25, 2004, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 rune, Update Found it! Item 954 here. http://www.militarybookworm.co.uk/cgi/search-2.pl?item=Colonial%20and%20Foreign%20Forces And here's a 6th SA Armd Div Italian campaign map drawn by a member of the unit. Bit pricey, though. Item # 286. http://www.selectbooks.co.za/Catalogue27/27South%20Africa.html Regards, John Kettler [ March 25, 2004, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted March 26, 2004 Author Share Posted March 26, 2004 Thanks John, while both books look interesting, and in a perfect world I would buy them, they are a little too expensive for me to buy, especially just to make a scenario. If anyone has either book, let me know. Rune [ March 26, 2004, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: rune ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Radley Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Good Grief, Rune! You're going to employ facts as opposed to the visions you experience from huffing paper bags full of gold spray paint??? I'm shocked! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dook Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Rune, the book John K. mentioned, Victory in Italy, is available at Northwestern University's library, if that helps. That's the closest location to Chicago. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 And here's a book specifically on the architecture and landscaping at La Foce. More shortly. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812235932/102-0302263-9051336?v=glance Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Originally posted by rune: Thanks John, while both books look interesting, and in a perfect world I would buy them, they are a little too expensive for me to buy, especially just to make a scenario. If anyone has either book, let me know.Doesn't your local library do inter-library loans? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted March 27, 2004 Author Share Posted March 27, 2004 Never been to a Chicago Public Library, have you? It involved giving blood, sacrificing a Penger [hmmmm], and enough paperwork to make the Federal Government jealous. I will see if I can get into Northwestern's, but last time I was there, it was students and faculty only. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Rune, Was wondering whether you ever got (by whatever lawful means) what you needed in order to finish your La Foce scenario. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Tim .. i have that History of the Fallschrim Panzerkorps Hermann Goring book. Will trawl thru it to see if there is anything of value in it for you Regards Måkjager 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 Thanks, but just posted the scenario at the depot like twod ays ago. Thanks very much! Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 LOL Tim.. just goes to show i am really keeping up with the times bud best Måkjager 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.