Rabidbvr Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 Just an idea i feel it may have already been a topic.. please tell me if i am wrong you seem to get two types of status on tanks and inf support weapons when taken out by enemy fire.. abandoned and knocked out... i have played several games were i have small units of crew running around with little to do as they no longer have a weapon to crew.. tanks are a little diff as i know first hand that a tank can be put out of action and a major repair would be needed IE the (knocked out) status in the game... But when say for example a AT gun is abandoned due to morale issues what is to say a crew from a gun that morale is ok but have had a large shell punch a hole in it would be able to re-crew an abandoned weapon.... if you see what i am getting at..... i have looked into several battles most early war were brit 25 pounder crews moved from gun to gun when there own was KO your views please thankyou 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabidbvr Posted December 30, 2003 Author Share Posted December 30, 2003 Just an idea i feel it may have already been a topic.. please tell me if i am wrong you seem to get two types of status on tanks and inf support weapons when taken out by enemy fire.. abandoned and knocked out... i have played several games were i have small units of crew running around with little to do as they no longer have a weapon to crew.. tanks are a little diff as i know first hand that a tank can be put out of action and a major repair would be needed IE the (knocked out) status in the game... But when say for example a AT gun is abandoned due to morale issues what is to say a crew from a gun that morale is ok but have had a large shell punch a hole in it would be able to re-crew an abandoned weapon.... if you see what i am getting at..... i have looked into several battles most early war were brit 25 pounder crews moved from gun to gun when there own was KO your views please thankyou 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centaur Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 I dont Know about recrewing abandoned vehicles but my current PBEM adversary has a great line in crew forward observers even got a single crewman from a disabled stug to pin one of my anti tank guns for about 30 seconds. fortunatly a nearby crew of mine killed him by then. It all depends how you play if you want to send your crew on a march through enemy lines to weed out his hidden units or not, Im in the not camp and leave them in cover or ask them to leave but you cant legislate against the desperate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centaur Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 I dont Know about recrewing abandoned vehicles but my current PBEM adversary has a great line in crew forward observers even got a single crewman from a disabled stug to pin one of my anti tank guns for about 30 seconds. fortunatly a nearby crew of mine killed him by then. It all depends how you play if you want to send your crew on a march through enemy lines to weed out his hidden units or not, Im in the not camp and leave them in cover or ask them to leave but you cant legislate against the desperate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Historically speaking, you are correct - it was not uncommon for Anti-Tank Gun crews especially to temporarily abandon a weapon under fire and then re-crew it later. In fact, deliberate abandonment of a gun position was used as a way of dealing with artillery barrages. Generally speaking, the gun itself is somewhat less vulnerable to the effects of an artillery barrage than the crew is. As such, if the gun position came under artillery fire, the gun crew could retire to rearward positions, and then re-man the guns once the barrage was over. CM does not model crews abandoning heavy weapons, either deliberately as a tactic to avoid incoming fire, or in the case of a gun crew that panics, and then rallies to return to the fight. There were a lot of discussions about this back in the CMBO days, and I only partially remember the details. IIRC, not modeling guns being remanned had a lot to do with the fact that such a feature might easily be open to gamey abuses, with players repeatedly abandoning and remanning guns. It is also important to consider that it was not uncommon for crews abandoning weapons under pressure to 'spike' the gun, rendering it useless so that an advancing enemy couldn't turn it against them. As well, crews forced off weapons by fire probably wouldn't be in the best morale state, so it would probably take some time to convince the crew to turn around and get back in the fight. It certainly could and did happen, but in the context of your typical 20-40 turn CM fight, in many cases it probably wouldn't be until after the end of the scenario that the crew got back on their weapon. Overall, crews remanning weapons is something I hope to see modeled in CMX2. However, I don't see the current engine's lack of this feature as a huge problem. Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Historically speaking, you are correct - it was not uncommon for Anti-Tank Gun crews especially to temporarily abandon a weapon under fire and then re-crew it later. In fact, deliberate abandonment of a gun position was used as a way of dealing with artillery barrages. Generally speaking, the gun itself is somewhat less vulnerable to the effects of an artillery barrage than the crew is. As such, if the gun position came under artillery fire, the gun crew could retire to rearward positions, and then re-man the guns once the barrage was over. CM does not model crews abandoning heavy weapons, either deliberately as a tactic to avoid incoming fire, or in the case of a gun crew that panics, and then rallies to return to the fight. There were a lot of discussions about this back in the CMBO days, and I only partially remember the details. IIRC, not modeling guns being remanned had a lot to do with the fact that such a feature might easily be open to gamey abuses, with players repeatedly abandoning and remanning guns. It is also important to consider that it was not uncommon for crews abandoning weapons under pressure to 'spike' the gun, rendering it useless so that an advancing enemy couldn't turn it against them. As well, crews forced off weapons by fire probably wouldn't be in the best morale state, so it would probably take some time to convince the crew to turn around and get back in the fight. It certainly could and did happen, but in the context of your typical 20-40 turn CM fight, in many cases it probably wouldn't be until after the end of the scenario that the crew got back on their weapon. Overall, crews remanning weapons is something I hope to see modeled in CMX2. However, I don't see the current engine's lack of this feature as a huge problem. Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Originally posted by YankeeDog: IIRC, not modeling guns being remanned had a lot to do with the fact that such a feature might easily be open to gamey abuses, with players repeatedly abandoning and remanning guns.Well, the gamey Russians seemed to do it all the time. They also left one or two men up to fire the gun and have the others in a trench. All the reasoning I saw for the absense of re-manning in the first CM engine was difficulty of implementation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Originally posted by YankeeDog: IIRC, not modeling guns being remanned had a lot to do with the fact that such a feature might easily be open to gamey abuses, with players repeatedly abandoning and remanning guns.Well, the gamey Russians seemed to do it all the time. They also left one or two men up to fire the gun and have the others in a trench. All the reasoning I saw for the absense of re-manning in the first CM engine was difficulty of implementation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 As you no doubt know the abandoned/knocked out distinction only comes into play during operations where an abandoned vehicle has somewhat of a chance of showing up again the next time around. In scenarios abandoned and knocked out are pretty much the same thing. Though it would be nice for me to be able to recrew an abandoned AT gun during a scenario, you must admit it would be EXTREMELY painful to see the AI recrewing abandoned guns on a regular basis! In that regard, maybe its best to let sleeping dogs lie. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 As you no doubt know the abandoned/knocked out distinction only comes into play during operations where an abandoned vehicle has somewhat of a chance of showing up again the next time around. In scenarios abandoned and knocked out are pretty much the same thing. Though it would be nice for me to be able to recrew an abandoned AT gun during a scenario, you must admit it would be EXTREMELY painful to see the AI recrewing abandoned guns on a regular basis! In that regard, maybe its best to let sleeping dogs lie. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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