Reichsfuhrer SS info?

[Rob Murray]

I'm looking to design a scenario involving the 16th SS Pz Division " Reichsfuhrer-SS " & I need to know where I can find some source material ( in English preferably as I don't read/speak German ). About all that I know is that it fought in Italy ( in & around the Anzio area ) & that it's last two commanders were Max Simon & Otto Baum. I've tried Google & can't seem to find very much. What I'm looking for is info on what armor they used, etc.

Thanks for any help.

[Michael Dorosh]

Main Combat Units SS Pz Gren Regiments 35, 36, Panzer Battalion 16

Would seem your sources use my source - Men at Arms 34; lists the COs and little else.

Himmler's escort Begleit-Battaillon Kommandostab RF-SS expanded to Sturmbrigade Reichsführer SS Feb 43

To Corsica summer 43 (presumably to train?)

Expanded to panzer division Oct 1943, Formed Slovenia and Austria

In Feb 44, SS Pz Gren Rgt 35 and the FlaK battalion in action at Anzio (no tanks?)

March 44, remainder occupied Hungary

May 1944 division reassembled Grossetto in W. Italy

Fought in retreat up coast - Livorna, Pisa, Carrara

Aug to Sep 1944, anti-partisan operations and several major atrocities perpetrated.

Bologna, Forli Jan 1945 en route to Hungary. Finally in Action at Lake Balaton April 1945. Dispersed units surrendered to British and US forces at Klagenfurt, Radstadt.

That's all MAA tells me.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

To Corsica summer 43 (presumably to train?)

PAA et al were in the process of surrenderring, and an invasion of Sicily and/or Italy and/or Corsica and/or Sardinia and/or ... was expected at any time.

[Rob Murray]

Thanks. I'll take it from here.

[Dook]

You could also check out my scenario "Cecina Counterattack" at the Scenario Depot. IIRC, it involves the 16. SS Pz Div., supplemented by a heavy tank battalion - the 504th I think.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Rob Murray:

Thanks. I'll take it from here.

You really had no choice in the matter.

[A Panzer]

You might want to look at www.feldgrau.com. They might have something.

[Måkjager]

The following from the new Men at Arms "The Waffen SS-(3) 11th to 23rd Divisions"

Designations

Feb-Oct 1943 Sturmbrigade Reichsfuhrer -SS

October 1943 16.SS-Panzergrenadier Division Reichsfuhrer-SS

Commanders

Feb-Oct 1943 SS-Obersturmfuhrer Karl Gesele

Oct-43 - Oct-44 SS-Gruppenfuhrer Max Simon

Oct-44 - May-45 SS-Brigadefuhrer Otto Baum

Principle elements ( Units )

SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 35

SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 36

SS-Panzergrenadier Lehr Regiment 16

SS-Panzer Abteilung 16 ( Assault guns )

SS-Panzerjager Abteilung 16 ( strong in SP guns )

SS-Artellerie Regiment 16

SS-Flak Abteilung 16

SS-Panzer Aufklarungs Abteilung 16

SS-Pionier Battalion 16

The SS-Panzer Abteilung 16 seems to have had 30 Stugs on their roster. Not sure what the SS-Panzerjager Abteilung 16 had... might have been more Stugs or maybe Marder's.

The SS-Panzer Aufklarungs Abteilung 16 seems to have been a very nasty unit withover 2000 civilian deaths on their hands.

Regards

Måkjager

[Michael Dorosh]

I've been meaning to pick up the "new" MAA on the SS - I see they are split into several volumes. (Actually, my MAA version of the Waffen SS was the 'revised' edition and completly different from the original, so this is MAA's third kick at the cat).

Makjager, do you recommend this multi-volume set? I thought their treatment of the German Army was exceptionally good (bearing in mind the limitations of the series).

[Rob Murray]

Thanks to everyone for their help. I checked out Third Reich Factbook ( think the name's changed - can't remember ) & Feldgrau. I even checked some looney site called Stormfront ( it was in Dutch & I knew by the title that it was a Neo-Nazi site - had to look out of curiousity ).

JJ Fedorowicz used to have a book about this division ( it was in German though & quite pricey ). I'm leery about their publications too as they seem to have a decidely pro-German ( ie. Third Reich ) slant to them. I've got a few of their titles & noticed that, over the years they began to really glorify the Waffen SS, etc. ( became far less objecive ) so I stopped buying their books.

[ October 20, 2004, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Rob Murray ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Rob - interesting comment about Fedorowicz; do they actually write books, or just translate existing ones in German? German history does tend to glorify individual heroism and shy away (naturally enough) from political stuff...I get their regular email updates but can never afford their books so I stopped reading them. It does look like some newer titles in print, but I always thought they were written overseas and simply translated?

[Rob Murray]

Michael:

I believe they just translate them. I have Karl-Heiz Munch's Combat History...653 which is an excellent book. But then they turn around & put out junk like " Michael Wittmann and the Tiger Commanders of the Leibstandarte " by Patrick Agte. This book reads like an SS propaganda leaflet ( no objectivity whatsoever ).

My other problem with JJF is that they frequently are published with glaring errors ( photos mis-captioned, typos, etc. ) Don't want to get into bashing JJF here so I'll leave it at that.

I think the Osprey series ( in general ) is a far better value. Sure, they do have inaccuracies in some of them but you're not paying $100+ for them.

[ October 20, 2004, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Rob Murray ]

[Little_Black_Devil]

Having the luxury of shopping from JJF locally - I've had the chance to see their entire collection first hand (as opposed to being limited to just the text and screenshots from their website).

This allowed me a much greater appreciation of everything they do carry, though admitedly my personal taste is more of a technical nature so I have a tendancy of looking past the books which might contain some sort of a political bias.

I will agree, that their books are - an the whole, woefully overpriced.

I guess since they cater to a niche market the only way to stay in business is to charge what they do for books, but that doesn't change the fact that high prices prevent me from doing more business with them then I already do.

Anyhow, to their credit, they do carry a more extensive collection of both imported books and scale model kits (Tiger Hobbies: co-located with JJF Books).

If you can read German or Russian, then they have that much more to offer you.

If you're limited to just appreciating all the pretty pictures in those [imported] books (like me) then perhaps this is actually a strike against them.

I guess it also depends on what you want the book(s) for (scale modeling reference - or to read for example).

In any event, most of these same books (imported or not) are not otherwise readily accessible to me, and are even more costly to obtain elsewhere because of shipping/customs costs etc.

Despite the steep prices (and depending on what you're looking for) - I do have to say, that carousing their collection in person, can be a difficult test of one's will power. Just ask my Wife.

The next time I visit their store though, I will have to take a broader look at everything they carry to see if there really is some sort of "pro-nazi" emphasis. If there is - from what I've seen, I missed it.

Anyhow - sorry I couldn't contribute to the actual conversation at hand here, I'll shut up now. :/

[Michael Dorosh]

I was wondering when the Winnipeg boy would chime in - that was quite useful. I think German histories by their nature tend to glorify German military prowess (so too do American, Canadian and British histories, for what that is worth). I agree with Rob that there is a definite slant towards Waffen SS titles - mostly because that is what sells. No escaping that fact. Sheer number of volumes alone may make it seem like Nazi hero worship; I guess the trick is weeding out the bad volumes that Rob describes from the objective ones. And being a niche market, there aren't a lot of places that would objectively review these books - you have to be a bit of an SS nut to shell out for one to begin with.

So I obviously agree about the prices; I've only bought the GD titles very reluctantly - unfortunately for English speakers, he is one of the only games in town, and for certain subjects, the absolute only one.

[Rob Murray]

What put me off JJF ( really off ) was a snail mail catalogue that I got from them several years back. In it, French MacLean's ( sp? ) The Camp Men was described as ( & I'm paraphrasing here as it's been a while ) " purports to show the relationship between the Waffen-SS and the concentration camps ". It's a well known fact that ( at least in the case of Totenkopf ) many personel were transferred back & forth from the division to KZ duty or began their careers as KZ personel. Whomever wrote that catalogue obviously had a real thing for the W-SS.

Anyway, thanks again for your ( Makjager too ) help with my original question.

[ October 21, 2004, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Rob Murray ]

[Måkjager]

Michael i "collect" the Men At Arms series like a child collects dirt

I have the original W-SS and the revised edition too. These new books ( 4 in total ) are better as they seem to have more information at hand- within the limitations of the book size, and the color plates ( my primary interest as a sometimes scale model figure painter ) are very good compared to the "old" books.

Rob.. i have typed up the whole "Campaign" section for you to browse

CAMPAIGNS

In May 1941 troops from Himmler’s Kommandostab RF-SSformed a new “elite” escort unit , the Begleit Battalion RF-SS. After the opening of the Russian campaign it was employed with the rest of this command in anti-partisan duty. In February 1943 it was decided to upgrade this unit to brigade status, and at this time it was renamed “Assault Brigade Reichsfuhrer-SS”.

Before leaving the front it was believed to have operated alongside troops commanded by the notorious Oskar Dirlewanger during the anti-partisan operation near Minsk , Operation ‘Kottbus”, in March 1943.

Shortly thereafter the embryo brigade was moved to the Mediterranean island of Corsica , and during the summer Himmler took steps to enlarge it to divisional status. In September it was on standby for use against the Italians should they decide to resist the German occupation following the unilateral Italian armistice.

On the 3rd October Hitler approved the formation of the division; the Sturmbrigade provided the nucleus,with various SS training and replacement units, a draft from the 9.Division Hohenstaufen, and a considerable number of Hungarian Volksdeutscche. During the last quarter of 1943 and early 1944 the new 16.Division was forming up and training in Slovenia and at Baden south of Vienna, reaching a strength of just under 13,000 by the end of the year.

In late January 1944 the Anglo-US landings around Anzio and Nettuno on the west coast of Italy led to parts of both Panzergrenadier regiments and the Panzerjager unit being rushed to this front, seeing combat under 14.Armee until 9th March. A battalion from the division may also have been involved in anti-partisan operations on the Eastern Front in early 1944.

At the same time much of the division was allocated to Operation “Margarethe”, the German for the occupation of Hungry, whose Axis leadership was wavering. These elements reinforced by the arrival of the newly re-formed Begleit battalion RF-SS, and a SS-PzGren Lehr Regt from the Prosetschnitz training school- left Baden in March 1944 for occupation duties around Debrechen. By April the detached units from Italy rejoined; some men were transferred to the 3.SS-Pz Div totenkopf and replaced by local recruitment. However the 16.Div RF-SS was soon on its way back to Italy, where it was reported in May.

Throughout June and July 1944 the division as part of LXXV Korps resisted the British 8th Army’s advance in Liguria, making a fighting retreat via siena and Pisa to Carrara in August. Later operations were under the XIV Panzer Korps, and I Fallschrim Korps, part of 10.Armee. ~By the end of 1944 some 3,000 casualties had reduced the divisional strength to just below 14,000. Under attacks by Italian partisan's the division also reverted to its former standards of behaviour: men from SS Aufkl-Abt 16 executed 560 civilian men, women and children at Sant’Anna di Stazzema on the 12th August. Later that month troops thought to be from the division killed further 370 civilians at Bardene San Terenzo; and SS-Pz Aufkl Abt 16 killed perhaps 1,670 during 29th August-3rd september and 1st October in villages around Marzabotto.

In January 1945 the division moved from the Apennine mountains north east to the area south of Lake Commachio: it then entrained at Ferrara ( minus its antitank battalion ) for transfer back to Hungry during February. There it came under 6.SS-Panzer Armee for Operation “Fruhlingserwachsen”, the March offensive around Lake Balaton, where it had no more success than any of the other formations committed to this ill-planned attack.

During late march and April, under XXII Gebrigs Korps of 2.Panzer Armee, the division, still about 13,000 strong on paper but with far fewer men on the line- was pushed back steadily westwards into southern Austria. The remnants surrendered in early May to British forces west of Graz , and to US troops around Klagenfurt and Radstadt. One soldier from the division was decorated with the Knights Cross.

Hope this can flesh things out for you.

BTW Rob.. the 30 Stugs info came from the book "Sturmgeschutz Vor" Assault Guns to the Front by Franz Kurowski ( yes Micheal i collect them too

Best regards

Måkjager

[ October 21, 2004, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Måkjager ]

[Rob Murray]

Thanks Makjager. That was very kind of you. Hope you don't mind but I " swiped " your notes. :eek:

[ October 21, 2004, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Rob Murray ]

[Måkjager]

Hey Rob , no problm at all Sir.. just glad i can be of some help to you. Speaking of which i knew i had some more info for you regarding the Panzerjager unit.

The books "Nuts & Bolts" number 17 and 18 covering the Marder III "M" and Marder III "H" has some information on the RF-SS Panzerjager Abteilung 16.

The SturmBrig.RF-SS/Pz.Jg.Abt. RF-SS had 10 Marder III (M or H variants) shipped to it on the 17/07/1943

On the 15/09/1943 another 10 Marder III ( M or H ) were also shipped.

Seemingly the Pz.Jg Abts were organised with two companies (Kp.) of SPGs and one of towed 50mm/75mm Pak.

The Pz.Jg Komp. had 10 Marders.. one Stabs and 3x3 Plts.

Tis late.. will get back tomorrow night with any more info i find.

Best regards

Måkjager

[Rob Murray]

Thanks again...you've been very helpful. I think I'm going to invest some cash in the MAA W-SS series ( the newest ones that is ).

[Måkjager]

Rob , quick note- i have found some photos of the Stugs used by the SS-Panzer Abteilung 16 ( Assault guns ). They seem to be early Stug III Gs , so i would recommend MikeyDs Stug IIIG ( mid-early) Italian Theater mod set.

Best

Måkjager

[Rob Murray]

Sounding like a broken record here :eek: but thanks again Mak. Re: Mike's StuG IIIG's: I've already downloaded & " home CMMOSed " the whole set. Now all I have to do is fiddle around with the scenario editor to make a decent map ( which should only take about 8 years :eek: ). Still learning about map making.

[ October 22, 2004, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Rob Murray ]

[752ndTank]

Rob,

The 16.SS-PzGdr (RFSS) fought in the battle for Cecina, as well as Rosignano, to name just two that I'm pretty familiar with. For a description of the Cecina action, I have a very detailed web page that references the 16.PzGdr:

http://www.752ndtank.com/cecina.html

In addition, I have a much more detailed account of it and more details on the German defenders in an English-language article I co-authored for After the Battle (Issue 114). For my Italian friends, I co-authored an earlier version of the article in an Italian language magazine called Storia e Battaglie (no. 4, Settembre 2000).

Finally, I have a copy of the extremely well-detailed History of the RFSS called "Im gleichen Schritt und Tritt." It's 784 pages of highly detailed info, with tons of maps and photos, as well as copies of historical documents. If you can locate it, it's a great resource even though it is all in German.

In addition, if you can get a book called Cecina Anni di Guerra, it will be worth your while. It's in Italian, but it contains references to the RFSS, as well as a few photos.

Ciao.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by 752ndTank:

Finally, I have a copy of the extremely well-detailed History of the RFSS called "Im gleichen Schritt und Tritt."

Ciao.

It's interesting that Waffen SS histories are given names focussing on the casualties they suffered - the title above comes from the funeral song "Alte Kameraden." Another popular title for an SS history has been "When All Brothers Are Silent."

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I agree with Rob that there is a definite slant towards Waffen SS titles - mostly because that is what sells.

That's the key. They are a business that translates books in a niche market. SS sells, Herr doesn't

[Rob Murray]

752Tank: Thanks for the link.

I didn't want to open a can of worms over JJF. I've just found that with a few notable exceptions ( Karl-Heinz Munch's 653 book ) I've found their books to overpriced & full of typo's & miscaptioned photos. If they're asking $100+ for their books then as a consumer, I have a right to expect that someone there will do a proper job of proof reading before they release a book.

[ October 30, 2004, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Rob Murray ]