Italiani, brava gente

[Reckall]

From the CMAK blurb:

"Experience combat in a full 3D battlefield as machinegun tracers arc overhead and exploding artillery shells shake the earth! Watch the famous Deutsches Afrika Korps storm the fortress of Tobruk, or help the US and british forces defend against powerful German counter strikes at Anzio. Fight with the elite German Fallschirmjäger units in Crete, or follow General Patton's sweep across the island of Sicily."

I belive that "Run like hell during the O'Connor Offensive! Throw away your rifles and embrace the invaders at Gela! Manage to do your best and still lose at El-Alamein!" wouldn't have been such a seller...

[Botto]

Its sad the myth of all Italian soldiers being cowards is still around

[Michael Emrys]

Yes, even at Beda Fomm, the last big battle of the O'Connor offensive, the Italians fought determinedly to break through the British lines.

In any event, I don't think a sensible refusal to commit suicide in a lost and unworthy cause is to be equated with cowardice. After the armistice, many Italians fought bravely to help evict the Nazis from their homeland.

Michael

[von Lucke]

Hmmm, let's see: A repressive Fascist dictatorship sends me to an empty wasteland, with inadequate weapons and limited supplies, then my incompetent officers place me in indefensible positions with no support, and then people wonder why I surrender to the first Tommy to wander within 500m of me? Uh-huh.

Then there's the Bologna Division that, during the retreat from el Alamein, marched through the desert for 2 days without water, beating off several attacks by Brit armor and infantry, before forming a square with the remaining survivors and taking on all comers for most of a day before surrendering --- and then only because they'd run out of ammo and water.

[ianc]

Hmmm, let's see: A repressive Fascist dictatorship sends me to an empty wasteland, with inadequate weapons and limited supplies, then my incompetent officers place me in indefensible positions with no support, and then people wonder why I surrender to the first Tommy to wander within 500m of me? Uh-huh.

Hmmm... Sounds a lot like what the typical landser had to endure in Russia in '43, but they weren't exactly surrendering in droves...

ianc

[Reckall]

Actually, to see what a properly equipped and motivated Italian soldier could do in WWII, you only have to consider the U.S. Army

[Knaust]

hi Reckall...CMAK gives you a taste of WWII real life from the the point of view of the Italian soldier...try to fight Matilda's with L13/40 :cool:

anyway we have conquered the world with our pizza

[Monty]

Originally posted by ianc:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Hmmm, let's see: A repressive Fascist dictatorship sends me to an empty wasteland, with inadequate weapons and limited supplies, then my incompetent officers place me in indefensible positions with no support, and then people wonder why I surrender to the first Tommy to wander within 500m of me? Uh-huh.

Hmmm... Sounds a lot like what the typical landser had to endure in Russia in '43, but they weren't exactly surrendering in droves...

ianc </font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by ianc:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Hmmm, let's see: A repressive Fascist dictatorship sends me to an empty wasteland, with inadequate weapons and limited supplies, then my incompetent officers place me in indefensible positions with no support, and then people wonder why I surrender to the first Tommy to wander within 500m of me? Uh-huh.

Hmmm... Sounds a lot like what the typical landser had to endure in Russia in '43, but they weren't exactly surrendering in droves...

ianc </font>

[Mr Furious]

Originally posted by Knaust:

hi Reckall...CMAK gives you a taste of WWII real life from the the point of view of the Italian soldier...try to fight Matilda's with L13/40 :cool:

anyway we have conquered the world with our pizza

Yep a cultural victory! Everyone eats italian food, drives german cars and buys japanese electronics. Who lost again !??!??!!?

[SgtMuhammed]

Originally posted by Mr Furious:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Knaust:

hi Reckall...CMAK gives you a taste of WWII real life from the the point of view of the Italian soldier...try to fight Matilda's with L13/40 :cool:

anyway we have conquered the world with our pizza

Yep a cultural victory! Everyone eats italian food, drives german cars and buys japanese electronics. Who lost again !??!??!!? </font>

[Knaust]

sgtgoody..you have missed the humour of my post

[Le Tondu]

When I was stationed in Italy, I remember a guy who told a story about how he and his family had nothing but a small piece of bread to eat for dinner one evening. The father would divide it up equally for all to share. He said "Now, you know why the Italians hate war."

I don't blame them.

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ianc:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Hmmm, let's see: A repressive Fascist dictatorship sends me to an empty wasteland, with inadequate weapons and limited supplies, then my incompetent officers place me in indefensible positions with no support, and then people wonder why I surrender to the first Tommy to wander within 500m of me? Uh-huh.

Hmmm... Sounds a lot like what the typical landser had to endure in Russia in '43, but they weren't exactly surrendering in droves...

ianc </font>

[Gyrene]

Were the Italians cowards or simply not mindless sheep?

The majority of Italian soldiers had the good sense and freedom of thought to not follow their dictator and to be accomplices in his crimes. More than I can say for the German soldier.

Gyrene

[Knaust]

... Gyrene...

maybe Italians didn't consider themselves as uebermenschen

[massimorocca]

Italian lost 600k men killed in the first world war. Not so bad for a bunch of cowards.

Yes in the second world war they surrendered at Agedabia, I heard of surrender at Bataan, Singapore, Tobruk, Kiev, Stalingrad, where there are no Italians. Usually encircled men with no hope to be salvaged surrender. Men walking in the sand with no water in the desert must surrender if they cannot break the ring and is difficult to do it with 47at against Matilda.

To see what Italians can do also in desperate situations look to the breaking of the Russian ring after operation "Little Uranus"

[Bastables]

Yes Singapore is a highlight in screwups of WWII, that I personally feel cannot be matched by the Italians in North Africa. The British did not face invincible tanks for instance only the pycotic need of their commanders to force a major defeat on themselves: Gen Percival to Brig Simsion on the question of defence works 'I believe the defences of the sort you want to throw up are bad for the morale of troops and civilians.' Barber comments 'Simson was "frankly horrified" and remembers standing there in the room suddenly feeling quite cold.

Or the brillent leadership that inspite of noting recce that the Japanese were massing in the north-west, that the army would focus on the north east that was unsuitble for landings becasue of the coral. By the time they were moved back to the north west it wsa too late. The impregnable fortress and Jewel of the British east had fallen with the loss of over 130,000 British, Indian and Australian soldiers, nevermind the fall of Malaysia.

The Order of the day released to the Malay Tribune two months before the fall

'We are ready. we have plenty of warning and our preparations are made and tested... we are confident.Our defences are strong and our weapons efficient. Whatever our race.. we have one aim and one only, it is to defend these shores, to destroy such of our enemies as may set foot on our soil.. WHat of our enemy? We see before us a Japan drained for years by teh exhausting climes of her wanton onslaught on China... Let us all remember that we here in the Far East form part of the great campaign in the world of truth and justice and freedom.'

As the editor of the Malay Tribune said, 'it was hard to believe that anybody could deliberately tell so many lies.' (Dixon 1976)

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by massimorocca:

Italian lost 600k men killed in the first world war. Not so bad for a bunch of cowards.

Yes in the second world war they surrendered at Agedabia, I heard of surrender at Bataan, Singapore, Tobruk, Kiev, Stalingrad, where there are no Italians. Usually encircled men with no hope to be salvaged surrender. Men walking in the sand with no water in the desert must surrender if they cannot break the ring and is difficult to do it with 47at against Matilda.

To see what Italians can do also in desperate situations look to the breaking of the Russian ring after operation "Little Uranus"

Or the Savoia Division at Dongolaas Gorge, or the Folgore Division's fighting retreat after el Alamein, or the actions of Italian Navy commandos, etc., etc.

Didn't say they were cowards. I am saying they were less than interested in laying down their lives for the cause. Big difference in running away in fear and panic, and just deciding you don't want to fight anymore.

[Knaust]

I am saying they were less than interested in laying down their lives for the cause

Which cause?...Division Acqui had 9406 losses in Cefalonia(5000 of them were killed after surrendering) simply because they refused to give their weapons to the Germans.

[Botto]

July 4 1940 - The start of a series of first moves by Italy that led to humiliating defeats of the British. Lt. Gen Guglielmo Nasi struck westward from Ethiopia into Sudan. They capture several border towns and arrive within 300 miles of Khartoum. Within 6 weeks, Nasi conquered British Somaliland, causing the British to evacuate from the Sea at Berbera.

November 6 1940 - The British mount their counteroffensive in the Sudan town of Gallabat. 7,000 troops under the command of Sir William Slim storm Gallabat with tank and infantry. Without air cover, he was unable to achieve his goals. The Italian Air Force shot down 5 gladiators and bombed his troops, killing 42 and wounding 125. The attack on Italian forces ended with a British withdrawal.

NEBEIWA 1940

Italian artillery men encounter the British Matilda's for the first time and fought against them with great bravery, but with little success. An English combatant at the scene described the battle:

"The Italian and Libyan dead were everywhere. The guns were piled around with empty cases where men had fired to the very last. The Italians...fought like hell in Nebiewa."

Cowards? :confused:

January 24 1941 - Considered the first real "armored clash" is spawned at Mechili. The Italian Special Armored Brigade destroys 15 British tanks and pursue the the British for an additional 20 kilometers before losing communication with the home base and turning back. They then destroy another 6 tanks from a British counterattack. O'Connor orders a two week halt to bring in fresh supplies after his 70 cruisers are reduced to 50, and 120 light tanks reduced to 95. He considers this force to small to attack the 57 M13/40's and 25 L3/35's of the Italian Brigade.

April 15 1941 - A convoy of 3 Italian destroyers and 5 merchant ships were engaged by the British 14th Flotilla which included the Mohawk, Nubian, Jervis and Janus. In this battle, all 5 merchant ships were sunk as well as 2 of the Italian destroyers, the Luca Tarigo and Baleno. In an act of bravery, the Italian destroyer Luca Tarigo, attempted to take on the entire British 14th Flotilla alone. A British shell eventually hit the Tarigo's bridge, blowing the leg off the captain, Commander Pietro de Cristofero. With his leg crudely bandaged, he continued to exchange fire with the British warships until he died of loss of blood. The crew continued to fight on without him and managed to place the Tarigo between the British ships and the convoy. An ensign of the Tarigo managed to launch 3 torpedoes, sinking the HMS Mohawk before getting her steering gear destroyed and having the deckhouses go up in flames. The Luca Tarigo finally settled to the bottom of the sea after being hit numerous times.

Cowards?

April 30 to May 4 - Axis forces attack Tobruk . It is reported that 740 Italians and 658 Germans die. Rommel allows his German units to rest and orders the Italian Brescia, Ariete and Trento Divisions to contain the British counter-attacks. Axis supply lines are now stretched 700 miles.

Rommel further alienates Italian and German units by giving recaptured Italian guns to the Germans at Bardia. He then quickly criticizes Italian supply efforts

Rommel the great? :confused:

May 27 -28 - The British are ordered to evacuate Crete. In the 3 day battle of the seas, the Italo-German forces were able to sink 2 cruisers, 4 destroyers and one battleship. Two cruisers and 4 destroyers were damaged severely. During this battle, the Decima Flottiglia Mas maneuvered six Explosive Motor Boat (EMB) through the mines and antipersonnel nets of Suda Bay and sunk the British cruiser HMS York, two tankers and a steamer

"Cowards" in speed-boats attacking Crusiers?

September 20 1941 - The Decima Flottiglia Mas is able to complete its second attempt at attacking ships ported in Gibraltar. Human Torpedoes successfully sink 2 tankers Fiona Shell and Denby Dale and the British H.M.S. Durban. The pilots and divers successfully escape by swimming to Spanish shores

Cowards?

BIR EL GOBI

November 19 1941- British attack Axis forces at Bir El Gobi. Ariete's 146 M13/40's take the brunt of the attack and stop the British advance. The Ariete deploy in three battalion sized formations with twenty four 75/27's, thirty 47/32's, twelve 105/28's and seven 102/35's. The Ariete with 73 guns and 137 tanks, engaged the 28 pdrs. and 158 Crusaders of the XXII Armoured Brigade of the British. The XXII lose 55 tanks at Bir El Gobi and spend the next two days in the Allied rear regrouping. The 21st Panzer also managed to destroy 23 of the IV Armoured Brigades tanks. Over the next few days, the Ariete attack the XXII and IV Armoured Brigade and by November 23, the Ariete, Trieste and Savona account for more than 200 British tanks destroyed along with roughly 200 British vehicles. The Bologna, Trento and Pavia Divisions contained Tobruk. Because of the independent actions of the Italian and German subordinate, Rommel was saved from disaster

[Botto]

El DUDA

November 26-27 1941 - The 9th "Trieste" Regiment of Bersaglieri encounter the Freyberg's troops in El Duda. Official New Zealand history of war reports:

"The Bersaglieri Regt. fought with much greater determination than is usually found among the Italian troops and the numbers of their dead and the positions in which they lay showed that they had kept their guns in action to the last."

November 28 to December 4 1941 - Italians troops are engaged in heavy fighting with British Commonwealth forces around Tobruk and Sidi Rezegh

BIR EL GOBI

December 4 -7 1941 - Another successful engagement by Italian forces in Bir El Gobi, when the battalion of Giovanni Fascisti maul the XI Indian Brigade, destroying 100 tanks. Norrie's troops, who had an overwhelming advantage in every area, failed to concentrate their actions against the Italians causing one arm of the Italian battalion, the "Giovanni Fascisti" to block the actions of his corps and inflicted heavy casualties on one of his brigade The Giovanni Fascisti engaged the British army corps for 4 days and severely damaging the IV Armoured Brigade. The IV Armoured Brigade had to retreat 20 miles in order to reorganize. This forced Ritchie to abandon his intent to attack Rommels southern flank and trap his forces in Gabr Saleh.

The 1st and 2nd Battalions of this Reggiment stopped the 11th Indian Brigade, the 4th Armored Brigade and the 1st S.A division from the period of December 2nd to the 7th, 1941, protecting the back of DAK saving the Italo-Geman army.

Michael Carver, author, writes of the Italian parachute division at Bir El Gobi:

"...The "Folgore" parachute division "gave a very good account of itself" and that it was "the best of the Italian divisions" should not be taken as simply a random observation."

December 5 - Rommel orders a general retreat and "forgets" to notify the Trieste and Ariete Division, forcing them to fight through the British Commonwealth IV Armoured Brigade and the 7th Support Group to rejoin the retreating German forces. Rommels hasty retreat cost the Italian Ariete and Trieste Divisions greatly, however, their determination to fight through the surrounding British gave the Ariete and not DAK, the first major tank battle of North Africa and accounted for another 100 British Commonwealth armored vehicle losses at Alam Hamza.

[Botto]

December 8 1941 - A group of the Sezione Prelevamento (Withdrawal Section) of Italian Army intelligence (SIM Servizio Informazioni Militari) lead by Maj. (Carabinieri) Talamo break into the U.S. embassy in Rome and steal a code book known as the "Black Code". They photograph the codes and put it back in the safe. These photos were used to decipher top-secret messages sent from Cairo to Washington D.C. about British strength and weaknesses in Africa. This discovery was what gave Rommel the early successes in the desert war.

The Black Code was always managed by the Italians, who gave the Germans only the decyphred messages in regards to actions in northAfrica

Note: Maj. Talamo died March 22nd, 1944 shot by Germans at Fosse Ardeatine

-

Mid December 1941 - British Commonwealth forces commence the big offensive action known as "Crusader". The Italian Carabinieri Parachute battalion joins the battle against the Commonwealth forces with the other Italo-German forces and charged to protect the "Ariete" Division, which was withdrawing after a successful attack of British armored forces. Although the amount of Italian 75 mm guns in North Africa remained the same as it was in 1940, the Italians had doubled the amount of 100/17 guns to 24 and added twelve 88/55's, giving each Division 60 guns for a 10:1 ratio of artillery to battalion compared to the 6:1 it had during Graziani's first attacks from Libya. Coupled with Rommel's German Forces, the Axis war machine had doubled the firepower of what Graziani had available in 1940.

December 18 1941 - Force K, the British Flotilla assigned to protect Malta and its shipping, hits an Italian moored minefield 20 miles east of Tripoli. The cruiser HMS Neptune and destroyer HMS Kandahar are sunk, the cruiser HMS Aurora is badly damaged and the cruiser HMS Penelope is slightly damaged. The site of the stricken ships limping back to the Grand Harbour brought a sense of fear into the Maltese people, who depend on the protected convoys to survive.

AFRICA

December 18-20 1941 - The Carabinieri Parachute battalion repeatedly engage the British Commonwealth forces at the Eluet el Asel fork in the Cerenaic Djebel. After holding the violent attacks of the British forces, the Carabinieri Parachute battalion get the order to withdraw and shoot their way out of an encirclement with a brave attack near Lamluda fork along the Balbia road. They finally reached the Italian lines after suffering 35 dead and 251 missing. For their bravery and sacrifice, the Carabinieri Parachute battalion's Flag of Arm was decorated with the silver medal to the military valor.

Cowardly acts?

December 19 1941 - The H.M.S. Valiant and H.M.S.Queen Elizabeth, while moored in the port of Alexandria, are critically damaged by explosions under their keels planted by Human Torpedo's operated by Italian frogmen of the Decima Flottiglia MAS. The damage was so great that these two ships were deemed unseaworthy. Along with the Battleships, the tanker Sagona and the British Destroyer Jervis were also severely damaged. Two Italian frogmen are captured, Lt. Luigi Durand de la Penne and Lt Bianchi. They refused to divulge any information until moments before the explosion (because they were being interrogated right above the area of the keel where the explosion was to occur). This attack, which neutralized the ability of the British to oppose the Italian Regia Marina with its battleships, allowed deeply needed convoys to supply Axis forces in Africa.

[Botto]

The partial successes of Italy's armored division, the "Ariete", at Bir Gobi on November 19, Sidi Rezegh on November 23, El Duda on December 1 and Alam Hanza on December 15 caused Auchinleck to write in his journal :

"The Italian M-13 tanks which, as a result of the previous campaign, we had inclined to dismiss as valueless, fought well, and had an appreciable effect on the battle."

--

January 23 - Italian intelligence begin giving Rommel daily British Order of Battle. Italians give the Marcks Group more power by presenting the self propelled Semovente 75/18

May 26 1942 - Trieste makes its way through British minefields and the Ariete destroy the III Indian Motor Brigade and hold the IV Armoured Brigade because the German 90th Light proved to weak to both attack and guard the Axis flank.

May 27 1942 - Italian troops attack Bir Hacheim. Rommels Axis forces reach 10 miles behind the Gazala line. Italian engineers open a supply line in the west to Rommels forces.

May 28 1942 - DAK runs out of fuel. The Ariete and Trieste divisions overrun British positions to assist the DAK. On the 28th and 29th of May, the Italian X Corps open up supply lines through the British minefields.

June 5 - 6 1942 - British Commonwealth forces mount a major counteroffensive code named "Aberdeen". The Italian X Corps holds them up in the North and the Trieste and 90th Light contain the French at Bir Hacheim. The Ariete joins the 15th and 21st Panzer to battle the 42nd and 7th Royal Tank Regiments, including the II, IV and XXII Armoured, IX and X Indian and the CCI Guards brigades. The Ariete and Italian artillery repulse the British at Sidra and Aslagh ridges. Italian forces account for 60 to 168 cruiser and 60 'I" tanks lost by the Commonwealth forces between June 5 and 6

July 27 1942 - The Axis supply crisis ends and the Trento artillery destroy 27 tanks, 30 vehicles and capture 1,000 POW's during an Axis counterattack after the 9th Australian and I Armoured Brigades overran the Trento 61st Battalion and the German 361st Regiment. The British are now just as exhausted and the Italian XX Corps maul the New Zealanders, thanks mostly to Italian artillery and mines which destroy 86 of the XXII Armoured Brigade's 97 Valentines and 120 New Zealand anti-tank guns.

End of July 1942 - The British try to break through the Folgore Parachute Division at Deir el Munassib, but Folgore's strong defense repell the attack and cause the British substantial losses in men and vehicles.

[Botto]

The Last Charge...

August 1942 - Russians near Serafimovich launch a counterattack against the Italians holding the Don River in the hope of holding back the advances to Stalingrad. The Italians were outnumbered yet told to stand their ground and fight to the end. They eventually beat back the Russian tanks with Molotov cocktails. The battle in Serafimovich cost the Italians 1,700 men, but capture 1,600 Russian POW's and many small arms.

-

August 24 - With the victory in Serafimovich, the Italian Savoia Cavalry made up of 600 men mounted a counter attack on the Isbuschenski steppe. The Russian's comprised of 2,000 men with mortar and artillery support. One squadron attacked head on, while the other came behind the enemy lines on horseback and possessing only sabers. They completely catch the Soviets by surprise and overrun the Russian position.

This was one of the last calvary attacks of history and resulted in the destruction of 2 Soviet battalions, another battalion forced to withdraw and the netting of 500 POW's, 4 large artillery pieces, 10 Mortars, and 50 machine guns.

Avanti Savoia!