Infantry ambushing armor

[civdiv]

Here's yet another question for those many expert CM players. You are defending with an infantry force against a mixed armor and infantry force. The terrain is fairly congested, and there are two main avenue of approaches up roads that lead through intermittant woods. You are very few zooks, so you are going to have to rely on infantry assaults on the armored vehicles. I set-up a close range ambush with an infantry squad, and give them a very short covered arc, only aout 15 meters deep, with the leading edge directly even with them, on the road that leads through the woods. Basically I'm hoping to go after the flank and rear of any vehicles that come through the covered arc. A tank and a halftrack are leap frogging up the road. The halftrack happens to be leading when it crosses the covered arc, with the tank about 30 meters behind. My squad, instead of using their sticky bombs or grenades, fires small arms at the halftrack and the tank. Of course, they are promptly destroyed by the combined firepower of the tank and the halftrack.

How do you set-up defensively, to get them to actually try to ambush armor in this situation? I guess it could be a case of the TAC AI saying; 'Well, they got that tank in overwatch, I ain't leaving my hole.' Or is it simply a case that you need to have the armor pass, and then give them a follow command?

I know what I want them to do, I'm just trying to translate it into game terms.

[Kingfish]

You mentioned you have very few zooks, which I am assuming you mean the Panzershrek, the German equivalent of the American zook, and that there are two main approaches thru trees.

My suggestion would be to have the Panzershrek teams conduct the actual vehicle ambush, while the squads are deployed to cover the shreks from allied infantry screens. If the terrain is tight enough you can suppliment the shreks firepower with that of a Panzerfaust equipped squad, or half squad, but the shrek should be the primary vehicle killer. Make sure to assign them a "armor only" covered arc, and they are under the command of a HQ with good bonuses, such as Combat and morale.

[The_Enigma]

In the few times ive set up an ambush for armoured vehicles in a forest road, i dont use the cover arcs.

In the situation am thinkin of i had a shreck o one side of the road, another bout 50 meters down on the other side and a few squads/ tank hunter teams in the middle of both sides of the road.

This worked to my advantage, the tanks didnt spot them until it was to late, the shreck opened up hitting the lead tank, the 2nd put his foot down and drove on to be attacked by the rest of the ambush force.

prehaps this example will help some?

[civdiv]

Thnaks for your quick replies. When I said 'zook, I meant bazooka. That's what I call them, sorry for the confusion. And I think I have like 2 total zooks to defend against at least 6 armored vehicles, which is why I need to rely on my squads to close assault them. And considering they are bazookas, and are not nearly as effective as either a faust or a shrek, I certainly can't rely on them.

Basically I'm trying to figure out how to get a squad in hiding in foxholes next to a road that runs through woods to jump out and assault an armored vehicle that is 'hunting'. Maybe its a bad idea since they only have rifle grenades and regular grenades. They could probably take out a halftrack, but not a Pz IVH. With almost no bazookas, and a couple of engineer squads that I have to reserve for blowing some bridges, I'm sort of stuck with the squad assaults.

What I may try is letting the armor by, and try to hold up the infantry, but I suspect the tanks will just stop and hammer me. I suspect my engineers might do better against unsupported armor.

But with a tank moving passed my hidden infantry w/o seeing it, and going slow, in restricted terrain, and passing only about 5 meters away, I should be able to dash out of cover and assault it sort of Pvt Ryan style.

[Pirx]

Keep in mind that the Pvt Ryan-style assault is abstracted in the game, therefore you don't see a graphical representation of the assault. What you should see is that your squad unhides when the enemy vehicle enters the cover arc, then throws a grenade (or shoots a rifle grenade) every 20-30 secs. DON'T assault or use the "follow vehicle" command because it gives away your position, drawing murderous fire.

I suspect what happened is either:

1) Your squad got spotted before the assualt. Bad luck

2) The game engine may treat halftracks differently than tanks. The TacAI may have considered the halftrack as more of an "infantry"-type target than an AFV, and therefore used small arms fire rather than grenades. Some of those halftracks are pretty thin-skinned, after all, and can be damaged by machine-gun fire. This is just speculation on my part, but more experienced players may know whether this is explanation is plausible.

It might have been better on your part to keep your squad hidden and let the halftrack pass, then assault the tank. After all, your squad is going to get mauled by the surviving AFV. Wouldn't it be better to trade your dead squad for a dead tank, rather than a dead halftrack?

[The_Enigma]

another example which has just came to mind which again may help you out.

i had an american paltoon, spread out in 4 houses at or coming up to a crossroad. Am sure there was 2 squads each side of the road. A Panther came rolling on through (the troops who had not been given an order to hide)and the troopers start firing there rifle grenades and lobbing grenades at the tank. They immobilised it!

If you know there gonner roll on pass ... it may be better not to hide them in there holes and let them engage at will?

[civdiv]

Again, thanks for your advise. I think I am going to set-up a mini-game and explore the options. I'll try all of your suggestions.

[civdiv]

Ha, I set-up a little test scenario. I couldn't force the German's to advance the same way, so the Pz1VH came first, with the halftrack nowhere in sight. And I gave the German's a squad mounted on the PZ IV.

I set the covered arc for the hiding squad as above, with the leading edge directly in front of the squad on the road, hopefully to get hits on the flank and rear of the tank or halftrack, whichever came first.

And up my rifle squad popped, and promptly hit the tank with two rifle grenades, both of which penetrated! The first immobilized it, and the second (That hit like 4 seconds after the first) forced them to abandon. In that first burst they also killed 3 of the rifle squad and sent them fleeing to the rear. Obviously I'm going to have to run through this a few times to see if I just got really lucky. I think I'll pick hot seat so I can recreate the leapfrog from the scenario that started all this, and just let the TAC AI take care of the squads reactions.

[Grimly Fiendish]

Pirx is right: the AI considers halftracks to be non-armored. You have to use the cover armor to focus any unit to fire on tanks alone.

[civdiv]

That makes it a problem as you can't assign infantry a 'cover armor' command. I'm still playing with this little scenario I built. I tried it a second time, and hot seated it so I could have the halftrack and the tank moving together. Funny, after nailing the Pz IVH with two rifle grenades, both of which pentrated, the second time w/ the HT leading, the HT initiated the ambush (entered the squad's covered arc), and the squad hit it with two rifle grenades, but neither did any damage.

Then, because the HT stopped immediately upon getting hit, the tank kept on moving forward, until it was litterally a meter away from the ambushing squad. But they ignored it because it hadn't entered the covered arc yet. Then the tank backed up about 10 meters and fired, and then the squad reacted and shot the commander out of the turret.

I'll try it a few more times to try and determine what the best course is. It did notice that the Germans could see the foxhole as they rolled up to it, but they couldn't see the squad in it. The AI would ignore it, but I think a human opponent may notice it, and assuming the turn's movement hadn't broken the squad's covered arc yet, started shooting.

I may try to also let them by, and then give the ambushing squad a 'follow' command, and see if the two vehicles see them break cover from behind.

[Grimly Fiendish]

Civdiv, here's a link I also just posted on CMBB. It's a classic, so probably many people know it: the Army basic training manual, illustrated version for dummies.

http://thetrainer.info/infantry1.htm

Relevant quote:

ANTI-MECHANIZED FIRE

Should hostile armored cars (reconnaissance vehicles) be encountered or in case of attack by light or medium tanks, antitank rifle grenades are employed within effective range (75 yards). Riflemen fire upon personnel carriers and armored cars.

So there you are.

[civdiv]

Ok, I set-up a little scenario with a US infantry squad ambushing a German unit on a paved, wooded, road. The US infantry squad is hiding in a foxhole, facing the paved road that is less than 5 meters away. The German unit proceeding down the paved road consists of the

following;

Lead Vehicle: Regular SPW 250/1 with a 4 man Regular HQ section embarked. The HQ is Combat +1, Stealth +1. The vehicle is proceeding under 'movement to contact' orders.

Trail Vehicle: Regular PzIVH with a 9 man Regular 44 Fusilier Squad embarked. The vehicle is trailing the SPW by approximately 10 meters on

'hunt' movement orders.

The US squad is a 12 man, regular 44 Infantry Squad. It has a covered arc set over the paved road, with the leading edge (The edge from

where the Germans are moving) set-up perpendicular to the paved road. The squad is within the command range of a HQ section deeper in the

woods, with +2 Command and +2 Stealth.

Here is a picture;

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/7139/infantryvsarmorambush7zb.jpg

Attempt 1;

Two hits on SPW w/ rifle grenades, no casualties. Squad ignores tank (Though 1 meter away, it hasn't crossed into the squad's covered arc.) until tank backs up and fires. SPW retreats in reverse. When PZ IV fires, the ambushing squad engages and shoots the commander out of turret, tank is shocked. German squad dismounts with two casualties and is paniced.

Scenario ended.

Attempt 2;

4 hits w/ rifle grenades on SPW, all penetrating but no damage. HQ unit on SPW takes 2 casualties, dismounts and engages squad. SPW panics and routs. Squad destroys HQ unit and engages tank. Commander buttons. Squad on tank dismounts, taking 1 casualty, and panics and routs.

Ambushing squad takes 3 casualties and is pinned. Tank ends up with ass to ambushing squad.

Attempt 3;

3 hits, 1 miss w/ rifle grenades on SPW. 1 member of crew killed, crew bailing out, 2 casualties to HQ. HQ dismounts and engages squad from point blank range. Tank keeps going until abreast ambishing squad while rotating it's turret. Squad engages tank, killing TC, tank shocked, and forcing infantry squad to disembark w/ 1 casualty. Disembarked squad, since it has not crossed the covered arc of the squad, is ignored, while the squad engages the HQ unit. The disembarked squad crawls to the ambushing squad and starts hand-to-hand combat. End result; knocked out HT with 1 surviving crew member bailing out. Tank retreats with TC dead, but recovers from shock at end of turn.

German squad that disembarked from tank routs with 5 casualties. HQ section of 4 men that was on the HT eliminated. The ambushing squad took 5 casualties.

Attempt 4;

2 hits, 2 miss w/ rifle grenades on SPW. 1st rifle grenade destroys MG, causes 1 casualty to HQ section. 4th knocks out SPW and causes 2 more casualties to HQ section. HQ section (1 man now) dismounts with SPW crew. Small arms engagement which buttons PZIV and forces infantry squad to dismount with 1 casualty. HQ section and SPW crew destroyed from point blank range. German infantry squad does a paniced back up road. PzIV reorients turret on ambushing squad but turn ends before it can engage.

Attempt 5;

1st rifle grenade knocks out SPW killing the crew, and killing 3 members of the HQ section, which is forced to dismount. 2nd rifle grenade misses. PzIV proceeds forward, and is hit, with no damage, by 3rd and 4th rifle grenades, and buttons, and infatry squad dismounts. In a close range firefight, the German squad does a panic rout after taking 8 casualties while inflicting 1 casualty on the US ambushing squad. The Pz IV ends up facing away from the ambushing squad (Showing its ass.).

I played out the 5th attempt to see if the squad could assault and take out the PzIV because its butt was exposed, and the squad had only

taken 1 casualty. The squad had expended all of its rifle grenades. Strangely, the squad approached the tank until it was maybe 2 meters

away, and then did nothing. On the next turn I retargetted the tank, and the squad just sat there lookingat it until the PZ IV opened up and turned them to mush.

Do you have to have somwething besides regular grenades to assault a tank?

[BulletRat]

Pioneers kick arse at killing tanks, satchel charged blow the **** out of damn near anything.

Useful little buggers, them engineers.

[civdiv]

Ok, I set-up a little scenario with a US infantry squad ambushing a German unit on a paved, wooded, road. The US infantry squad is hiding in a foxhole, facing the paved road that is less than 5 meters away. This is the same situation pictured and discussed above, but I cancelled the US squads covered arc. The German unit proceeding down the paved road consists of the following;

Lead Vehicle: Regular SPW 250/1 with a 4 man Regular HQ section embarked. The HQ is Combat +1, Stealth +1. The vehicle is proceeding under 'movement to contact' orders.

Trail Vehicle: Regular PzIVH with a 9 man Regular 44 Fusilier Squad embarked. The vehicle is trailing the SPW by approximately 10 meters on

'hunt' movement orders.

The US squad is a 12 man, regular 44 Infantry Squad. In this situation I skipped the covered arc, intending to let the vehicles pass, and

then engage the trail vehicle (Pz IV from behind), so I gave the squad no covered arc. The squad is within the command range of a HQ

section deeper in the woods, with +2 Command and +2 Stealth.

Attempt 1;

Halftrack spots the squad after it has passed it (by about 5 meters) and stops and begins to turn. The squad engages, and hits the SPW with

the first rifle grenade, causing 1 casualty to the crew, shocking it. The 2nd misses, and the 3rd penetrates the turret of the Pz IV, causing one casualty. The 4th misses. The Pz IV buttons up and is shocked, and the infantry squad dismounts and is engaged by the ambushing squad, and wiped out to the last man. The US squad takes 1 casualty. The 2 shocked vehicles retreat in reverse up the road.

Attempt 2;

This time the SPW doesn't see the ambushing squad but the tank does. The US squad reacts and misses w/ it's 1st rifle grenade (versus Pz IV, I think), hit but no damage w/ 2nd, forcing the German squad to dismount. The 3rd rifle grenade misses, and the 4th is a front turret penetration, but no damage. The US squad then engages the German squad, taking 1 casualty and breaking the German squad and inflicting 3 casualties. But then the SPW and the Pz IV turn and engage the US squad, and the turn ends with the US squad taking 2 more casualties. And next turn isn't looking good.

Attempt 3;

Again the SPW misses the squad, but the Pz IV spots it. The US squad initiates the ambush against the Pz IV, 2 hits for no damage, 1 miss.

The infantry squad is forced to dismount. The SPW quickly turns and engages (Basically the SPW is on the US squads left, and the PZ IV on the right.). This one turns ugly as between the SPW and the German infantry squad, the US squad takes 6 casualties, while the German squad takes 2. And next turn looks grim w/ an undamaged SPW and now outnumbered by the German squad. The Pz IV proceeded down the road.

Attempt 4;

I'm not sure if this one should count. Neither vehicle spotted the US squad, nor did the US squad engage. But the movement orders for the German vehicles ended just passed the US squad. After sitting there for a few seconds the SPW spotted the US squad and began to rotate. The US squad then initiated the ambush by hitting the Pz IV with their first rifle grenade, causing no damage to the tank, but forcing the squad to dismount with 1 casualty. The tank buttoned and sat immobile, probably because they couldn't see the US squad. The PSW turned and began to engage the US squad, while reversing UP the road. The 2 squads duked it out with the US squad taking 3 casualties while wiping out the German squad. Next turn could be interesting as the US squad has 3 rifle grenades left, and the Pz IV is just sitting there, but then the SPW is also engaging from further up the road.

Attempt 5;

The SPW fails to spot the US squad, but the Pz IV does, and starts to rotate it's turret. The SPW has just passed the squad, and the Pz IV hasn't quite reached it yet. The US squad engages the SPW first, missing w/ it's 1st rifle grenade and knocking it out with the 2nd, and forcing the HQ section to dismount w/ 1 casualty. The US squad then engages the Pz IV with small arms, and buttons it, forcing the infantry squad to dismount w/ 1 casualty. And then this superhuman US squad, in the course of about 5-7 seconds, eliminates the SPW crew, the HQ section, hits the Pz IV with a round that penetrates the turret, and inflicts 3 more casualties on the German infantry squad crawling towards them. The turn ends with the buttoned but undamaged Pz IV proceeding down the road, the German squad with 6 casualties, and the US squad still unscathed.

[tar]

You might want to try setting up a bit further from the road. Being within 1-5m of the road in the woods doesn't let your infantry hide very well.

As long as they are within about 20m of the road, they will be able to use their grenades and close assault, and they will be harder to spot. If you can, it would be good to have additional infantry, or preferably an MG at some greater distance to force the armor (HT or tank) to button up. That also reduces the spotting ability of the armor and makes the ambush more effective. It will also strip the tanks of any riders farther away from your ambush zone.