WP in CMAK

[Mr. Tittles]

Wasn't 155mm one of those WP calipers?

[CMplayer]

Couldn't you just post more pics? Here's one to help you along.

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

Wasn't 155mm one of those WP calipers?

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

Do you have any uber-info? German, Anglo or otherwise? Can you translate some German colloquialisms for us? Did you's Germans call it the 'AmiPhossen'? Enthrall us, Andreas, with your intricate heinie knowledge!!!!!

Why would I? You obviously know all there is to know already, except for correct English.

Is that chip on your shoulder making straight walking very difficult?

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Is that chip on your shoulder making straight walking very difficult?

Yes. You have got me dead to rights. Its a strait walking problem. Its all chip/shoulder related. You have correctly Englished it.

[Mr Furious]

Mr Tittles, you put forward an excellent argument for the inclusion of WP in CMAK. What i'm wondering though is whether, if it is included, they restrict it to simply being used as mortar smoke, keeping the effects of wp, but perhaps allowing you to only target areas and NOT specific enemy formations(this removes itsabuse as "napalm" saturation. Of course WP tank shells could be directed fire as standard.

I am convinced of it's need for inclusion but if it is and restrictions aren't placed on it's use it'll be abused very quickly by some in the comunity, that's my only problem with it though.

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by Mr Furious:

Mr Tittles, you put forward an excellent argument for the inclusion of WP in CMAK. What i'm wondering though is whether, if it is included, they restrict it to simply being used as mortar smoke, keeping the effects of wp, but perhaps allowing you to only target areas and NOT specific enemy formations(this removes itsabuse as "napalm" saturation. Of course WP tank shells could be directed fire as standard.

I am convinced of it's need for inclusion but if it is and restrictions aren't placed on it's use it'll be abused very quickly by some in the comunity, that's my only problem with it though.

In reality, its doubtful its in CMAK or will even get BTS' attention here.

I am not one to be critical of others, but I think CMAK bit off more than it can chew. If it was just Crete/North Africa with CMBB technology with dust, eh, then I wouldn't care so much. But to include Sicily, Italy and as late in the war as that entails, well it made me make this thread.

Sure, my direct fire effectiveness may certainly be beyond programming into the game at this point, but to not model the quickness with which WP generates smoke can not be that hard to include. I think the effects/availability may be questionable but not the obvious effects like the instant smoke plume/umbrella.

The 'smoke' actually comes about because the chemical P2o5 (or whatever it is) strips water from the air. It makes acid filled fog that is dry and caustic. Germans would cough till they passed out (if they could not leave a WP saturated area).

I am sure the germans had a thing or two to say about NOT including it in REAL WAR!!!!!!

[ November 02, 2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

Recommendations:

a. Recommend that consideration be given to more adequate and timely map & photo distribution to Armd FA Bn., since in the last 30 days of rapid movement this Bn was hampered by lack of maps and photos.

b. Recommend that White Phosphorous & Colored Smoke be made available at Ammunition Supply Points. It has been proven that WP has been invaluable as an offensive weapon. Also colored smoke is most easily picked up by air observation and therefore should be used almost exclusively by light artillery for marking air targets.

ROBERT C. McCABE,

Lt. Col. 419th Armd FA Bn.,

Commanding

3 Incls:

M7 Priest 105mm WP effectiveness

[Mr. Tittles]

Direct Fire:

I liken the use of 'special' smoke to the use of 'special' AP. The player does not get to choose the tunsten rounds, they are handled for him. Sure, he may position the firer so that it is likely, but it is also realistic.

Perhaps Green crewed Shermans might have 7 'generic' smoke shells and 2 WP. The chance they may use the WP would be governed by a routine.

A Veteran crewed sherman might have 2 generic smoke shells and 8 WP. he would naturally have a greater propensity to use WP just due to the numbers.

In other words, the overuse of WP is not directly in teh players hands.

[Mr Furious]

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

Direct Fire:

I liken the use of 'special' smoke to the use of 'special' AP. The player does not get to choose the tunsten rounds, they are handled for him. Sure, he may position the firer so that it is likely, but it is also realistic.

Perhaps Green crewed Shermans might have 7 'generic' smoke shells and 2 WP. The chance they may use the WP would be governed by a routine.

A Veteran crewed sherman might have 2 generic smoke shells and 8 WP. he would naturally have a greater propensity to use WP just due to the numbers.

In other words, the overuse of WP is not directly in teh players hands.

Sound like a plan, would work as well.

[Mr. Tittles]

Dec 20 - We got our holes dug and the Jerries threw a hell of an attack at us with tanks, artillery and infantry. But our artillery opened up too and it was the greatest barrage I ever heard. They threw a lot of WP at them and when the fire burst all around you could sure hear them scream. All nite they moaned and every time the artillery lifted you could hear them hell "Komerad" to surrender. I don't blame them but we weren't taking many prisoners right now.

http://www.thewarpage.com/diary.html

[Mr. Tittles]

At the Gnome-Rhone aircraft factory and airfield located at the southern edge of this important rail termanal city, a few Germans tried to hold off the column, but Lieutenant Paul Dreisbach's mortar men knew how to deal with them. Huge bomb craters provided covered firing positions for the enemy. Infantry would not have a chance if it tried to dig out the Germans, and the big craters made it too difficult to try to use the tanks. This was the time to use the mortars from Headquarters Company. A heavy barrage was laid down using a mixture of WP and Heavy HE ammo. When the Germans tried to run the tankers machine gunned them and the infantry picked them off with their rifles.

81mm halftrack mortars go to work.

http://www.5ad.org/units/81st.html

[JonS]

Originally posted by MsRegenerTitRon150

The German tank-and-gun combination seemed to be slow at maneuvering and firing, and also very susceptible to blinding by U. S. 75-mm smoke ammunition. On one occasion, two smoke rounds, followed by armor-piercing projectiles, were enough to force a Tiger to withdraw.

Don't those New Zealanders know that it isn't allowed?

Actually, it would appear that they did ...

This slogging match lasted the rest of the afternoon as the Tiger withdrew from its position by the cemetery ... Crawling up the other side of the gully between the two ridges, it came under intense fire from the remnants of the Squadron and in particular 7 Troop [b Sqn, 18th Armd Regt, 4th NZ Armd Bde, 2(NZ)Div] which had come forward through the smoke of the burning tanks to reinforce the badly hit 5 and 8 Troops. ... It was eventually stopped in the middle of a maize field where it was blown up by its crew, ... Doug Bull was among the soldiers that saw it and in his opinion: A shell hit a weld and busted it open. This set the motors on fire and they had to bail out smartly.

What is remarkable about this story was how the B Squadron was able to turn the tables on the Tiger and eventually defeat it. Kelly Forest Brown, then a major in command of B Squadron, put it this way: We put that tank out of action by smoke shells. ... It was from this point that New Zealander tank crews developed a liking for smoke as an offensive weapon, especially against Tigers and Panthers; with a particular preference for the American smoke shell or 'Yank Smoke' as they liked to refer to it. ... smoke shells of the period used white phosphorous as their active ingredient, relying on this element's property of igniting on exposure to air and releasing copious volumes of smoke into the immediate vicinity. In contrast, the M89 smoke round the Americans developed used the chemical hexachloroethane. Unlike white phosphorous, hexachloroethane did not generate heat while burning and as a result did not disperse upwards but stayed close to the ground forming an obscuring blanket. Both the Tiger and Panther were noted for problems with their exhausts, especially when driven in reverse. Under these circumstances the unwanted exhaust gases were often pulled over the engine deck, resulting in carbon monoxide being drawn into the fighting compartment. No doubt smoke could go in the same way.

But it was not just the smoke shell itself. The best practice appeared to be to follow up the smoke shells with a few other rounds (HE or AP) in the hope that it would discourage the Tiger crew from taking any further interest in the action. ...

(Plowman, J. (2002) Rampant Dragons.)

Shame they didn't have MsRegenerTitRon150 around to tell them they were using the wrong round. The war could have been over by, oh, probably Jan 42 if only they'd stopped using AP, HE, Smoke, etc, and just fired WP.

a list of US arty at the end of the ETO/MTO

Actually, this statement is wrong. You need to read stuff properly. That aside, what on earth does a list of all the independent US artillery bns tell us about the incidence of WP? Oh - wait a minute - you subscribe to the 'inputs' school of thought don't you?

What I find interesting is that the of the ammo consumption for the 4.2-in Mortar bn listed earlier - a unit specialising in the delivery of chemical payloads in general and WP in particular - less than half of the rounds they fired were WP. Maybe someone should have told them they were firing the wrong round too.

Regards

JonS

[ November 02, 2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Mr. Tittles]

Have you been reading the whole thread JonS? It has to do with an earlier post. Someone tried to make a remark about number of shells fired. But I will leave it up to you to catch up if its important to you.

I see you have not backed up your earlier proclamations in the Non-WP thread. Glad you can make a contribution here. Sooooo...

So what is the Tiger thing about? I posted the blurb in a joking manner but I do not want the thread to be WP-Antiarmor shell thread. Perhaps you might start a dedicated thread about it?

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by JonS:

What I find interesting is that the of the ammo consumption for the 4.2-in Mortar bn listed earlier - a unit specialising in the delivery of chemical payloads in general and WP in particular - less than half of the rounds they fired were WP. Maybe someone should have told them they were firing the wrong round too.

Regards

JonS

You must be joking.

No one has stated that WP is the round to use for all occasions. Its a laughable attempt. sorry.

Obviously, HE has better destructive effect against non-ignitable buildings, trenches , etc.

The wealth of posted testimony points that the combined use of the two shell types together was better than the sum of the parts.

And its pretty close to half. To say 'less than half' is funny too.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

To say 'less than half' is funny too.

Why :confused: Is it funny because it's true?

I haven't bothered answering in the other thread because it has become painfully obvious that you know very little about artillery. That would be fine were it not coupled with your repeated dishonest mis-use of information, incapacity to listen, and refusal to learn.

Based on this, I don't deeem it worth my my while to try and correct you. I do deem it worth my while to point out some of your many mistakes and errors, in case others should somehow get the impression you know what you are talking about.

Regards

JonS

[ November 02, 2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by JonS:

Isn't pointing things out the same as trying to correct me?

Its impossible to reason with people like you. I do not believe anyone, for a second, believes that I have to prove that WP was THE most used ammunition type for any weapon system to be included in the game. Its preposterous! Many ammunition types are included there are never more than single digit items!!!!

Please. Its just late night Pub tactics like yours that derail threads.

[ November 02, 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[JonS]

Mr Pedant,

'correct your understanding'. Clear now?

Regards

JonS

[Mr. Tittles]

German troops on the east bank were running all over apparently getting ready to blow the bridge. As Friesenhahn hurried across the bridge to give the order to blow the bridge, a tank shell exploded nearby knocking him unconscious. After fifteen minutes he regained his senses and again started toward the east bank. In and near the railroad tunnel, matters were chaotic. White phosphorous tank shells created a heavy eye stinging smoke screen.

Soldiers were screaming as their flesh burned from the phosphorous.

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by JonS:

Uhhh, did you catch the post here where it shows bursting type WP shells OF A CERTAIN TYPE (WP SO THERE!) preceded manufacturing of another non-bursting TYPE (Base eject)?

You still want to try to back up your statements, then go ahead..with data/sources please!

[ November 02, 2003, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

And finally, reinforcements and the "breakout" at dawn on May 23, 1944. My Division lost three thousand men killed or wounded in the first three days. We fought our way through the battered town of Cisterna at night. Fires were everywhere from artillery and white phosphorous mortar fire. We choked on smoke, cordite, and cement dust from the shattered concrete buildings.

[Mr. Tittles]

German and Yank artillery plus Tiger tank machine gunfire made it very uncomfortable for us. I heard a whistling noise and noticed a five inch piece of shrapnel buried a few feet from by head. Yank artillery started laying white phosphorous around us which was wicked. A heavy rain was making everyone cheerful. Suddenly both tanks left and the artillery stopped

[Mr. Tittles]

Note to all:

JonS is noted by his posturing, rants and then rapid retreats behind his mums skirt upon others requesting he back up what he says.

What a great fella.

[Mr. Tittles]

Shortly after daybreak the fog lifts. From our foxhole we can see the white chemical smoke which our engineers have placed upon the river to screen the crossing. The villages of Huntingen and Kerling are burning, and through the spotter-scope I can see our infantry-small figures moving across a field into a woods-and a few German vehicles moving back along a road which disappears over the crest of a distant hill. Lt. Moore and I look through the spotter-scope by turns, and occasionally one of us rings up fire direction on the field telephone to report what we see. One of our Piper Cubs, flown by an artillery liaison pilot, approaches from the rear and circles over us. He sees something on the high wooded hill across the river from us, for in a moment a shell bursts four hundred yards short of the wood-line; twenty seconds later smoke from a bursting shell drifts up through the trees halfway up the hill. Then a battery begins searching that hill with battery-one-rounds; the sheaf is correct, and the salvos land thunderously in the woods, six beautifully paced puffs of smoke blossoming simultaneously in a straight line among the trees. When he has combed that hill sufficiently with H. E. and White Phosphorous, the observer banks away and heads down the river.

[Mr. Tittles]

The machine gun fire had about stopped and would only be heard when someone would lose their nerve and get up and try to run to the rear. This happened 4 or 5 times in the next two hours. About 9:30 a.m. we started getting artillery fire, smoke shells, on the german position, and unfortunately also on our position. We were only 75 yards away. White phosphorous sprayed our position and it was heart-rending to hear the screams when someone was hit with it. About this time Sgt. Bill Holton died, off to my right. He had been raising himself up and down every once in a while with his hands. The look of agony on his face told the whole story. He had evidently been shot through the stomach.

[Mr. Tittles]

26 FEBRUARY

H-hour on 26 February was delayed until noon in order to allow the 29th Division to advance and protect the Ozarks’ exposed right flank. At 1200 hours the 407th, still with the 3d Battalion on the left and the 1st on the right, jumped off against Erkelenz and the intermediate objectives of Tenholt and Bellinghoven.

The 1st Battalion attacked from Lovenich to Erkelenz with Company B on the right, C on the left, and A in reserve. Some small-arms fire was received from the right flank, as the battalion at the time was on the right of the regimental zone. Just short of Bellinghoven, Companies B and C were held up by small-arms fire from a trench south of the town and by heavy artillery fire. The troops sought refuge in a trench about 150 yards from the German positions. Heavy wire separating the opposing forces made a frontal assault impossible so the companies fired rifle grenades and 60mm mortar rounds, including smoke and white phosphorus, into the German trenches. After ten minutes the Germans withdrew, allowing the companies to cut their way through toward Erkelenz. They reorganized in Bellinghoven in order to resume the northward attack at 1540 in conjunction with the other battalions. The advance into Bellinghoven was generally unopposed although the battalion suffered severe losses in a minefield just short of the town where twelve men were killed by mines.