WP in CMAK

[Mr. Tittles]

HE 75mm Range 12

(possibly)

Rate of fire of 75mm guns M1897A2:6 rounds per

minute;range 13,870 yds.;projectile weighed 19.49

lbs.;ammunition was:H.E.shell,Mk 1,with P.D.

Fuzes M46 and M47;HE Shell,M48,with P.D.Fuze,

M48,and T-S.Q.Fuze,M54;chemical shell,Mk.II,

with P.D.Fuze,M46;Shrapnel,Mk.I,with 21-second

Combination Fuze,‘07M;AP shot,M21,and semi-

A.P.shot,M72 (Photo of gun,strapped to carriage,in

1944 Catalogue,p.166)

75mm guns,M3 —standard for tanks rate of fire,210

rds./minute;maximum range with A.P.shell was

14,000 yds.,maximum elevation was 19.12 degrees,

maximum depression was 7.48 degrees;ammunition

was in the form of fixed rounds,consisting of an A.P.

shell,M61,with tracer,and B.D.Fuze,M66A1;H.E.

Shell,M48,normal charge,with P.D.Fuze.This is a

single shot,flat trajectory weapon (Photos in 1944

Catalogue,p.197).

M61 APC projectile (for M3)—14.96 lbs.,Explosive

“D ”,0.144 lbs.,and 2.16 lbs.of FNH powder

(Drawing in 1944 Catalogue,p.516).

M48,75mm high-explosive shell,standard (for M3

and M4):super normal,normal,or reduced

charges —with 1.93 lbs.super charge,14,000 yds.

range;with normal 1.05 lbs.charge,11,400 yds.

range,and with 0.38 lbs.reduced charge,7200 yds.

range;M4 propelling charge was 1.93 lbs.of super

charge,range of 14,000 yds.;shell contained 1.47

lbs.of TNT (or 0.11 lbs.of cast TNT and 1.36 lbs.of

Amatol as an alternate);propelling charge was 0.92

lbs.FNH powder (Drawing in 1944 Catalogue,p.

515)

HE 75mm

(cont.)

75mm aircraft gun M4 —standard:for air-to-ground

use against sea and land targets;ammunition was

issued in the form of fuzed complete rounds of fixed

ammunition.Rounds included the shell,HE M48,

with fuze,P.D.M57,and the projectile,A.P.C.

M61A1,with fuze,B.D.,M66A1.A steel cartridge

case was not used for the shell,H.E.M48,in the M4

aircraft gun (Photo in 1944 Catalogue,p.381 ].

In notes column:

WP is used as standard filling for 75mm shells,with a

range of 15 yds.(“Decontamination ” binder,,“Defense

Against Chemical Attack ”,pp.38-39)

75mm field guns included field guns M1897-16-17;

tank guns M2,M3,T7;anti-aircraft guns T6,aircraft

gun M4,and H.E.was one type of ammunition

provided for the guns (1944 AIG,p.382).

H.E.Shells include M48,M48A1,and M54 (Image in

1944 Catalogue,p.411);APC projectiles,M61

(Image in 1944 AIG,p.413);shot,AP,M72 (Image

in 1944 AIG,p.415),Mk.I (no Image,1944 AIG,p.

418)

[ November 01, 2003, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

75mm guns,M3 —standard for tanks rate of fire,210

rds./minute;

WHAAAAAAT??? Tell me, did you put in an extra '0' just to see if we are paying attention?

Michael

[Mr. Tittles]

81mm mortar

Firing;mortars Range 13C Fins on shell stabilize it in flight;the fins also cause

nose to strike first.A point-detonating impact type of

fuze is fitted to the nose of the shell.The propelling

charge attached to the base end of the projectile

consists of an ignition cartridge and propellant

increment.The increments of the charge are

removable to provide for zone firing.Ammunition

was an H.E.shell,M43A1 (6.87 lbs.)(range 100 to

3290 yds.);M36 (10.62 lbs.)(range 300 to 2558 yds.);

and a chemical shell,M57,10.75 lbs.(range 300 to

2470 lbs.)(Photo of mortar in 1944 Catalogue,p.

152).

M43 H.E.shell also used in 81mm mortar:range is

3,300 yds.(1944 AIG,p.280)(according to this

manual,range of M43A1 is approximately the same

as the M43)

Shell,H.E.,M44 also used in 81mm (1944 AIG,p.

285)

M43A1 —81mm,H.E.shell,6.92 lbs.,TNT bursting

charge of 1.22 lbs.or 0.98 pound of 50/50 Amatol

and 0.19 pound cast TNT,or 1.28 pounds trimonite

(Drawing in 1944 Catalogue,p.529).

M57 —81mm chemical shell,11.33 lbs.,projecting

charge was 4.59 lbs.of Chem.(FS)and 4.06 lbs.of

Chem.(WP),propelling charge was 0.116 flake

prop.Powder (Drawing in 1944 Catalogue,p.529).

Photo of 81mm mortar on Ordnance Information,

UXO procedures,p.C-11

WP is used as standard filling for 81mm shells,with

a range of 20 yds.(“Decontamination ” binder,,

“Defense Against Chemical Attack ”,p.40)

[Mr. Tittles]

Some quick notes:

81mm WP was larger then 81mm 'small' HE round. probably closer in size to 81mm 'heavy' HE round. It delivered 4 lbs of WP. More than likely, the burster charge was smaller than needed for a gun/arty shell since it had thinner walls.

I would contend that the 81mm WP would have less bang, fragments than a 75mm WP shell but a greater smoke producing/incidiery effect.

[Mr. Tittles]

WP is used as standard filling for 105mm shells,with

a range of 40 yds.(“Decontamination ” binder,,

“Defense Against Chemical Attack ”,p.40)

Ammunition for 105mm guns is summarized in 1994

AIG,pp.471-486.Many are summarized,but ranges

are not provided.Images are provided in 1944 AIG,

pp.474,476,477,480

in 1944 Catalogue,p.535)

M60,chemical shells,105mm,utilizing HS

(persistent gas),FS (smoke),and WP (smoke):either

4.61 lbs.FS (max range 12,319 yds.),4.10 lbs.WP

(max range 12,281 yds.),or 3.17 lbs.HS (12,243

yds.),utilized tetryl burster charge;each used 2.94

lbs.PNH powder for propelling charge (Drawing in

1944 Catalogue,p.536).

{NOTES:

This data backs up the earlier report that 81mm WP and arty WP (105mm) had a similar plume. Both carry about 4 lbs. of WP.

But note that bursting radius of 105mm WP is greater than 81mm. This may back theory of 'spin-distribution' or there may be a greater bursting charge also.}

[Mr. Tittles]

Long Tom

155mm gun

(cont.)

WP is used as standard filling for 155mm shells,with

a range of 50 yds.

WP filled for M1917/M1918M1:98.18 lbs.weight;

projectile charge and weight 15.68 lbs.chem.,0.36

lbs.tetryl,propelling charge and weight base NH

powder 21 lbs.,supercharge,base and increment

24.75 lbs.NH powder;range 16,220 (normal charge)

to 20,247 yds.(supercharge)

{Notes: 155mm WP would be heavy payload.

I believe that all gun/arty US WP firing weapons utilized the same burster-fusing combo, look up M8 burster fuse.}

[Determinant]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

75mm guns,M3 —standard for tanks rate of fire,210

rds./minute;

WHAAAAAAT??? Tell me, did you put in an extra '0' just to see if we are paying attention?

Michael </font>

[Mr. Tittles]

From the Redstone website...

Production proceeded on the 105-mm M60 white phosphorus (WP) or mustard gas (HS) shells, the 155-mm WP or HS-filled shell, M5 and M6 burster charges, the 100-pound A1 WP bomb, and the 100-pound A47A2 HS bomb. Among the new orders received in 1943 were those for M8 burster charges (by the casting method); M4 and M10 burster charges; 115-pound M70 HS bombs; 75-mm WP M64 shells; and 105-mm M84 HC base ejection shells.

The equipment on Line No. 3 had to be altered slightly to manufacture the M64 shell. Although few problems were encountered in making or assembling the shell, proof-firing indicated that it was improperly designed or needed different components. The trouble was traced to the M8 burster, which was not powerful enough to detonate the shell properly. Since a reconsolidating pure tetryl burster was deemed more effective, the Chief of Ordnance decided in May 1943 that cast bursters would no longer be used and that Redstone would go into production of the new bursters immediately at the rate of 250,000 a month. Six reconsolidating machines were put into operation but never worked properly. Three could have done the job if they had been perfected. Production schedules were met, but only because twice the number of people ordinarily used were assigned to the work.

{Notes: 105mm and 155mm WP rounds were in production early in the war. Perhaps preceding HC base eject type shells.

Lots o' bursters were needed.}

[Mr. Tittles]

Well Michael, you're a better man than me Sir - you still read this stuff?

I've got to the point where I... (attempt at hobo humor)[/QB]

Funny. I don't have those types in my neighborhood. Guess its a reflection of what streets you dwell on.

Michael is just an obsessive-negative type. He couldn't NOT read this fantastic thread if his life depended on it.

[Mr. Tittles]

The German tank-and-gun combination seemed

to be slow at maneuvering and firing, and also very susceptible

to blinding by U. S. 75-mm smoke ammunition. On one occa-

sion, two smoke rounds, followed by armor-piercing projectiles,

were enough to force a Tiger to withdraw.

Dont those New Zealanders know that it isn't allowed?

http://www.lonesentry.com/tigerflorence/

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

Michael is just an obsessive-negative type. He couldn't NOT read this fantastic thread if his life depended on it.

Good god, man, don't you ever get tired of being an obnoxious ****? Why don't you just make your case for whatever you are arguing for and leave the petty sniping out of it?

Michael

[Andreas]

Careful Michael, I think Mr. Tittles has issues with criticism. Don't you see he is writing a new bible?

[Michael Emrys]

Yeah, I know. Does he remind you of anybody in particular?

Michael

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

Yeah, I know. Does he remind you of anybody in particular?

Michael

Must have been separated at birth.

[Michael Emrys]

Or not at all?

Michael

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

Michael is just an obsessive-negative type. He couldn't NOT read this fantastic thread if his life depended on it.

Good god, man, don't you ever get tired of being an obnoxious ****? Why don't you just make your case for whatever you are arguing for and leave the petty sniping out of it?

Michael </font>

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

In general, I agree that the lack of WP in CM is dissapointing. While exactly what weapons systems should have WP rounds, and with what freqency, might be open to debate, I think it is clear that at least some types of WP (4.2" mortar, for example) were used frequently enough in real combat situations to merit their inclusion in CM. I also think it is clear that the effects of a WP round are different enough from a regular smoke round to merit separate modeling.

Cheers,

YD

Very well put.

[Mr. Tittles]

I think, that as a weapons system, WP was present very early in the US involvement in the operations covered by CMAK.

{Pssst. The name of this thread is WP in CMAK}

In US use in North Africa, it would have been mostly 105mm+ sized indirect fire.

In Sicily, It would have been 4.2" and indirect fire with 81mm. Since the fighting was becoming closer ranged, infantry hand and rifle WP grenades would have come to the forefront.

In Italy and onwards, it would have been all of the above and the increasingly used in direct fire applcations like the Sherman 75mm, M8 GMC and M7 Priest and Sherman 105mm.

The inclusion in the game of such rare or rarely used weapons like cannister or flamethrowers or those german tank-mounted grenade throwing things begs the question, is it really possible to research and document use of these weapons? i think that certain design level judgements do NOT have to be made by the criteria someone posted earlier.

I think enough evidence is available to support the US use of WP in many weapon systems during the war(and to exclude items like 60mm WP and bazooka till late in the war). Almost 100% of the information posted here is available on the internet. There is much more in books, etc.

If it is included in CMAK, then I applaud the decision. If it is excluded from further CM products focusing on US involvement in WWII, then I would not support such a product.

[Mr. Tittles]

Oh yeah, there were WP aircraft bombs also.

[Mr. Tittles]

76mm Ammunition:

Type Muzzle velocity Range

HVAP M93 Hyper-Velocity-Armour-Piercing 3400 FPS 2500 Yards

HVTP-T M315A1Hyper-Velocity-Target-Practice-Tracer 3400 FPS 2500 Yards

APC M62Armour-Piercing-Capped 2600 FPS 2500 Yards

HE M42A1 High Explosive Full charge 2700 FPS 14000 Yards

HE M42A1 High Explosive Reduced charge 1550 FPS 7600 Yards

SMOKE HC M88 Hexachlorethane 900 FPS 2000 Yards

SMOKE WP M312 White Phosphorous 2700 FPS 14000 Yards

This site claims 76mm WP but I doubt it was a WWII round. I think that all M10, M18 and Sherman 76mm did not have a WP round.

http://www.rclwinnipeg100.ca/TheShermanTankMemorial.pdf

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Careful Michael, I think Mr. Tittles has issues with criticism. Don't you see he is writing a new bible?

Since we are graced with your 'presence', maybe you could weigh in on the issue? I would not want you to jeopardize your vaulted stature as one of the Holy-4, mind you.

Do you have any uber-info? German, Anglo or otherwise? Can you translate some German colloquialisms for us? Did you's Germans call it the 'AmiPhossen'? Enthrall us, Andreas, with your intricate heinie knowledge!!!!!

[Mr. Tittles]

ETO:

Four 75mm howitzer battalions:

The 463rd Parachute, 464th Parachute, 601st Pack, and 602nd Pack;

Thirty-six 105mm howitzer battalions:

The 18th, 25th, 70th, 74th, 76th, 115th, 130th, 162nd Puerto Rican, 170th, 193rd, 196th, 241st, 242nd, 250th, 252nd, 255th, 280th, 281st, 282nd, 283rd, 284th, 394th, 401st, 512th, 522nd Nisei, 569th, 580th, 583rd, 627th, 687th, 688th, 690th, 691st, 692nd, 693rd, and 802nd;

Sixteen 105mm Armored Field Artillery Battalions (105mm SP):

The 58th, 59th, 62nd, 65th, 69th, 83rd, 87th, 93rd, 253rd, 274th, 275th, 276th, 400th, 440th, 695th, and 696th;

Seventeen 4.5" gun battalions:

The 172nd, 176th, 198th, 211th, 215th, 259th, 770th, 771st, 772nd, 773rd, 774th, 775th, 777th Colored, 935th, 939th, 941st, and 959th;

Seventy-one 155mm howitzer battalions:

The 2nd, 17th, 36th, 81st, 141st, 177th, 179th, 182nd, 183rd, 186th, 187th, 188th, 191st, 202nd, 203rd, 204th, 208th, 209th, 228th, 254th, 257th, 333rd Colored, 349th Colored, 350th Colored, 351st Colored, 521st, 550th, 665th, 666th, 667th, 670th, 671st, 672nd, 673rd, 686th Colored, 689th, 751st, 752nd, 753rd, 754th, 755th, 758th, 759th, 761st, 762nd, 763rd, 764th, 767th, 768th, 776th, 805th, 808th, 809th, 937th, 938th, 940th, 942nd, 943rd, 945th, 949th, 951st, 953rd, 955th, 957th, 961st, 963rd, 965th, 967th, 969th Colored, 974th, and 975th;

Thirty 155mm gun battalions:

The 190th, 200th, 240th, 244th, 261st, 273rd, 514th, 515th, 516th, 528th, 540th, 541st, 546th, 547th, 548th, 549th, 559th, 561st, 634th, 635th, 731st, 733rd, 734th, 976th, 977th, 978th, 979th, 980th, 981st, and 989th;

Six 155mm SP gun battalions:

The 174th, 258th, 557th, 558th, 987th, and 991st;

Thirty-eight 8" howitzer battalions:

The 194th, 195th, 207th, 264th, 529th, 535th, 578th Colored, 630th, 656th, 657th, 658th, 659th, 660th, 661st, 662nd, 663rd, 736th, 738th, 739th, 740th, 741st, 742nd, 743rd, 744th, 745th, 746th, 747th, 748th, 787th, 788th, 790th, 791st, 793rd, 932nd, 933rd, 995th, 997th, and 999th Colored;

Five 8" gun battalions:

The 153rd, 243rd, 256th, 268th, and 575th;

And fifteen 240mm howitzer battalions:

The 265th, 266th, 267th, 269th, 270th, 272nd, 277th, 278th, 538th, 539th, 551st, 552nd, 553rd, 697th, and 698th.

As of 8 May 1945 there were a total of sixteen separate field artillery battalions in the MTO, including:

One 105mm howitzer battalion:

The 175th;

Two Armored Field Artillery Battalions (105mm SP):

The 432nd and 1125th;

Seven 155mm howitzer battalions:

The 75th, 178th, 248th, 631st, 765th, 766th, and 936th;

Four 155mm gun battalions:

The 173rd, 530th, 633rd, and 985th;

Two 8" howitzer battalions:

The 527th and 536th.

[ November 02, 2003, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

The preceding is a list of US arty at the end of the ETO/MTO.

[ November 02, 2003, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

Thank you, and have a nice day.

[ November 02, 2003, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

Strategy is buying a rubber before going out on a date.

Tactics is groping around in the dark after you've dropped it under the car seat.

—Me

I vote this the stupidest thing ever written by a 'me' ever.