Need Info on German unit in Normandy

[Kingfish]

It's not like you guys have more important things to do...

Anyway, take a look here, and scroll down to where it describes the battle of Fontaine-Henry. There you see it mention a German 88 taking out 6 tanks from 'B' Sqd, 1st Hussars. This is also recounted here.

My question is what unit did that 88 belong to? 716th infantry or 21st Panzer? Or an independent unit? Was it a Flak or Pak 88?

Zetterling's Normandy webpage lists the 716th ID as having only 2 Pak 43/41, and no Flak 88s. The 21st Pz is better equipped, with a total of 12 Pak 88s and 8 Flak 88s. I don't see any reference to indepedent units being deployed in the area during that time.

I did find this map, which shows elements of both divisions deployed in the area on D-day.

Another great map, and one that would probably answer my question, is found here, but I lose clarity when I scale it up to read.

[JonS]

Best guess is PzJagBn200 from 21st PzDiv.

[Dandelion]

Hi there King

The 8.8's were Paks, not Flaks, and they belonged to Panzerjägerabteilung 200, Kompanie 3. Which in turn was a unit of the 21st, but deployed in the area of 716th and subject to the latter in the CoC. It had no contact with the rest of 21st at the time.

The 3rd company was deployed near and around Camilly tasked mainly with covering the road and open country leading South from Fontaine. I.e. the very road that B squadron used.

Closest infantry formation was II./726 which was deployed with left flank immediately North of company 3, not quite connecting to company 3 right flank.

The company had had an abortive attempt to regroup North to support II./726 during midday, but had returned to initial positions by the afternoon.

The company reported several Canadian tanks destroyed in the action. No numbers, no types, no specified enemy unit.

That help out?

Cheers

Dandelion

[Dandelion]

Rats, Jon beat me to it...

[JonS]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

Hi there King

The 8.8's were Paks, not Flaks, and they belonged to Panzerjägerabteilung 200, Kompanie 3.

That's odd. Zetterling has that unit with only 1 and 2 Kompanies in 21 Pz Div., while a 3 Ko. doesn't show up in the 716th OoB/TOE. Strange.

Nafziger also shows 200PzJgAbt as only having two companies, each of 12 x PAK 43.

[ May 05, 2005, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Dandelion]

Jon

I've got it. You're a New Zeelander, aren't you?

Yes sources conflict a lot on june 6th-7th, and it is not as if one can ever afford to be certain about anything. Here's what I've got:

In the Invasion Study* of Richter (716th) he describes the deployment of the battallion and the intentions both with initial deployments and orders issued during 6th and 7th. He mentions three companies numbered 1-3. The deployment map** of the 716th as reported in to army group B displays the deployment of the 200th (PzJg, to not confuse it with 200th Stug), mirroring his words and showing the same thing. In brief, Bn HQ is in St Pierre, 1st coy in near St Croix, 2nd coy north of le Mesnil and 3rd by Camilly. In the Feuchtinger report*** (21st) on June 6th he also mentions the three companies and provides roughly (but not exactly) the same deployment of the companies. In the war diary of army group B**** you find the same statements, but that is of course because Richter and Feuchtinger reported matters as such to H.Gr.B.

Here the first element of confusion presents itself. Dr Tessin¤ states that the 200th had only two companies (and Dr Niehorster does not make a note in his Errata on Dr Tessin, that this would be a faulty entry). Since Tessin per definition is never wrong unless he made a typo (Niehorsters Errata takes care of them), as he is merely stating what was documented and known by the OKH, the OKH must have also believed that the 200th had only two companies. I have seen this before however, how field conditions will not correspond. Another Normandy example of this is the famed but ill fated 15th companies of the PzGren regiments of 12th Pz SS, both of which were also quite unofficial and do not appear in records beyond divisional ones and the ever so precious Lagekarten and Stellungskarten. So one can accept this divergence - IMHO that is - without too much trouble.

We have the option of doubt here, and one can successfully carry an argument that there was only two companies, if a third appeared at all it must have been from another unit. Richter and Feuchtinger agree that there was a third and I am being comfortable and accepting their word for it.

A more serious element of confusion IMHO is that Feuchtinger and Richter - and Kortenhaus¤¤ - all contradict eachother as to what happened during the 6th and 7th.

1. Richter mentions ordering the entire 200th to redeploy slightly to the North of present positions, in order to link up with and support his infantry. The order issued at dawn, redeployment attempt was carried out at noon. He reports the redeployment as abortive.

2. Feuchtinger in his report states that one company (of course he does not mention which) redeploys North early in the morning, to the beaches and goes into action there, followed by the entire battallion arriving before noon. If we accept this, there was no company at Camilly when the Canadians arrived.

3. Kortenhaus, 21st division historian, states that the entire battallion redeployed to the West, except for three barrels left in Periers. Kortenhaus operates using the same material as Feuchtingr, we can regard them as one here, in spite of the North/West disagreement.

I choose to believe Richter here because

a) he was in command of the unit - 200th had no contact with the 21st at this point even though it organically belonged to 21st - and he is also the only one to state the reason and outcome of issued orders.

R's report on the delay of some 4 hours from order to execution is also more credible than F/K's report on zero delay. This newly raised battallion was spread out over most of Normandy.

c) R's statement that the attempt was abortive is credible given the allied positions by noon, more credible than the entire 200th from it's many positions throughout Normandy reaching the beaches.

d) R's version of the battallion unable to redeploy also explains why sections of 8.8's of the 200th keep appearing days to come in shattered elements of the 716th inland, with some parts incorporated in the Caen fighting.

Again, one can successfully argue that Feuchtinger is right instead. But thus I reached my conclusion.

There are a lot of more loose ends here. For instance Richter reports that the 5th company of 200th Stug was under his command also. My question must be - what 5th company? The unit had only 3 batteries, no companies and certainly no 5th company. And another point - 716th had access to a Heeresflak unit, wich had 8.8's. Sources of course again diverge on their whereabouts. It does seem they focused on protecting supply lines, but I can't be absolutely certain of that can I.

So it's a mess all of it really.

* Studie Generalleutnant Richter, MS-B-621

** [stellungskarte 716. I.D., Anlage 3 zu Obkdo. d.H.Gr.B Ia Nr 3050/44 geh].

*** Studie MS-B-441, Generalmajor Feuchtinger.

**** Kriegstagebuch Heeresgruppe B. Sections covering June available in print nowadays.

¤ Verbände und Truppen der Deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen SS im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939 - 1945, Siebenter Band: Die Landstreitkräfte 131-200.

¤¤ Kortenhaus, Werner, Die 21. Panzerdivision im Westen 1943-45.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[JonS]

D,

I know far better than to disagree with you re: German TOEs Far far better.

I didn't mean to imply you were wrong, just that it was odd. Also, I don't think the 'confusion on the 6th-7th June' really flies as a reason. The three ko. org must(?) have been in place prior to the invasion. What they got up to on the 6th and 7th would certainly be confused and confusing, but their existance - or lack thereof - shouldn't be. I think.

Is there any indication of the quatities of guns in each of the three kos.? Naf and Zet both have a total of 24 in the bn, 12 in each of their two kos. If Richter shows 8 in each of his three - or better yet, one of 12 and two of 6 - I think it becomes clear that R (or the Bn CO maybe) split the assets in some tactically or logistically expedient way, based perhaps on where they were located, or their intended role(s). I think it extremely unlikely that they were able to create an extra 12 PAK 43s as easily as they were able to form another ko.

BTW, yes I'm a Kiwi, although we spell it with an 'ea' rather than a double 'e'. I'll be quiet now.

Be cool

Jon

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by JonS:

D,

I know far better than to disagree with you re: German TOEs Far far better.

No please do, there is no way of ever reaching a conclusive truth in these issues, one never does. One can at best reach a plausible theory.

I didn't mean to imply you were wrong, just that it was odd. Also, I don't think the 'confusion on the 6th-7th June' really flies as a reason. The three ko. org must(?) have been in place prior to the invasion. What they got up to on the 6th and 7th would certainly be confused and confusing, but their existance - or lack thereof - shouldn't be. I think.

I think both Feuchtinger and Richter were perfectly clear on the matter of three companies, and that their superior in H.Gr.B. - in the case of Richter, Rommel at the time though reports would go to his Ia rather than him - was equally enlightened, but that nobody reported this choice of organisation to OKH.

Tessin marks the unit as such with an asterisk in his book, meaning that he has obtained information about it from Field Army command sources, not OKH sources. So the whole raising of the unit - not just the number of companies - was in all likelihood somewhat ad hoc. Which exactly mirrors the case of companies 15 in the 12th SS.

Well, that's my theory at least.

By the way it is always prudent to imply that I am wrong

Is there any indication of the quatities of guns in each of the three kos.? Naf and Zet both have a total of 24 in the bn, 12 in each of their two kos. If Richter shows 8 in each of his three - or better yet, one of 12 and two of 6 - I think it becomes clear that R (or the Bn CO maybe) split the assets in some tactically or logistically expedient way, based perhaps on where they were located, or their intended role(s).

Companies 2 and 3 are listed to have had 8 barrels on the 5th. 1st company had 5. Hq company had 3. My guess being that the latter three actually belonged to 1st company.

I think it extremely unlikely that they were able to create an extra 12 PAK 43s as easily as they were able to form another ko.

Yes indeed extremely unlikely.

24 complete Pak 43 serial production model 8.8cm weaponsystems were delivered by rail to Rennes in one batch in March 1944, for this unit. No other Pak deliveries until 1945. An unspecified batch of unspecified Paks is inherited from the 16th Lw (F) after Falaise in August.

Even though they stole a lot from eachother, any German unit would have a really hard time retrieving a Pak 43 at the time. First production batches only left the factories in february that year, the 200th was among the very first to receive this type. Difficult to steal as they were difficult to at all find. I see no possibility for the 200th to acquire any more Pak 43s.

My rival theory, that the 3rd company might have been a Flak company pressed into service from the Heeres Flak, is also rather unlikely. Flak and Pak have different symbols on a German tactical map, and 3rd company clearly display the Pak symbol.

Why will you stay quiet now? This is my idea of having a good time you know

Kiwi, of course. It all makes sense to me now.

Cheers

Dandelion

[Michael Emrys]

Congratulations, gentlemen. This discussion is a model of its kind and an inspiration to us all.

Michael

[Richie]

I am in utter awe...

[Mattias]

Indeed, just like in the good old days!

I fear that by letting you borrow Meyer’s books I may have accelerated your descent into grogginess Dandelion. Then again that could only have been a minute causal factor in the intricate web of this addiction

M.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

The deployment map of the 716th as reported in to army group B displays the deployment of the 200thPzJgAbt. In brief;

. Bn HQ is in St Pierre,

. 1st coy in near St Croix,

. 2nd coy north of le Mesnil, and

. 3rd by Camilly.

Hi again D,

I'm using this info for a completely different project now, and wanted to verify those locations. Could you please confirm the following:

. St Pierre is ... where?

. St Croix is just off N.13, about halfway between Bayeux and Caen, not St Croix-sur-mer about 3km inland from GOLD Beach

. le Mesnil is also known as le Mesnil Paltry, located just south of Putot, about 7km ENE of Carpiquet Airfield

. Camilly is located on GC.22 about three-quarters of the way between Caen and Creully, and closer to Creully.

Cheers

Jon

[Dandelion]

Hey, a thread full of nice people, what a very rewarding place to come back to

A practical man hunting usable solutions, Kingfish has triggered a great wealth of interesting threads. I always imagine him picking out the actually useful parts and returning to his designers workshop pretty quickly, leaving the esoteric debate behind as a speeding boat leaves a trail in the water.

You're working on a project Jon?

1. Saint-Pierre lies South of the Caen-Bayeux road. You've found Le-Mesnil-Patry. Look just (3-4 km) Southwest and you'll find Fontenay-le-Pesnel. Immediately East of the latter was a crossroad(s?), a fork with one road leading NW and the other SW, both passing through Fontenay. Following the road NW and it passes right through Saint-Pierre, about 3 km from the crossroad(s?).

As another point of orientation, Audrieu lies 4 km straight North of Saint Pierre and between the two lies les Hauts Vents, where Pz Lehr fought an action later in June. Also nearby is Cristot, where 12th SS fought later in June.

2. Precisely, St. Croix grand-Tonnes, not sur-mer. The company deployed not in the town but along the summit there. To the SW, the river valley ends by the town as you can see, and the summit of the ridge stretches from St Croix to Vieux Pont further NW along the Route Nationale.

3. Patry Jon, not Paltry Yes, that's the place, some 2,5 km South of Putot, or so. Again, there is a dominant ridge stretching from about Le Mesnil (the summit starting more precisely by Chateuax de Mesnil-Patry in the very northern edge of town) up to Putot. From that ridge, you own the RN13, which to top it off is an elevated road for miles on both sides of the ridge.

4. Yes, again the place. Strange reference point, Creully. Are you using a contemporary map? Creully is a mere dot on mine. Again a ridge. Technically Camilly itself is not on it though, it stretches from Secqueville (en Bessin) North to Le Fresne-Camilly. The company deploying with frontage along the road Camilly-Pierrepont, right across the ridge.

Overall, if you compare a topographical map of the same area you'll note that there is, generally speaking, quite a ridge stretching from Camilly to St Croix. Going from the latter via Cristot/Le Mesnil to Putot/Bretteville to Secqueville to Le Fresne Camilly and ending in the river valley just North of the latter. In several places that ridge is pretty dominant, with surprisingly sharp slopes here and there and the flatlands is rather open country. You will recognise all the towns I just listed, as they were all fought for, for obvious reasons.

The battallion was deployed all along this ridge in a wide arc, with the intent (Richters) to be able to support the poor bloody infantry of the 716th. The idea being that these guns - so heavy that they had no real tactical mobility - would find opportunity to use their extreme long range accuracy from up there.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Kingfish]

Good to see the usual suspects are here and hard at it. All that is needed to complete this picture is for Dorosh to pop in with the names of each tank crewman, John Salt with info on how long it took to deploy the CW 3" mortar, and Rexford on the pen factor of each 88 at any given range, angle of impact and time of day.

Thank you so much for the very detailed and interesting info. Another piece of the puzzle is now placed.

Jon,

With regards to the locations of Camilly, look here. Just follow the NW road from Buron to the first crossroad.

And for Les Mesnil, look here. Center of the map and just west of Norrey.

Here is another map showing Le Mesnil.

[Richie]

Funnily enough, I'm currently reading Will Fey's Panzer Battles of the Waffen SS and it has all sorts of fun tit-bits just like that...

[Zveroboy]

JonS, you can use the Michelin site to find what you are looking for :

With a quick search I found St Croix-Grand-Tonne,

Creully and Camilly by zooming in between Caen and Bayeux.

http://www.viamichelin.com/viamichelin/fra/dyn/controller/mapPerformPage?strLocation=Caen&strCountry=eur&google=1

[JonS]

Thanks Guys. I had most of the locations, but there are loads of very similarly named villages in that area, differentiated by a grand-Tonnes, a sur-Mer, or a les-Bains, etc. Those suffixes often get dropped, making it awkward - for me at least - to be sure that we're all talking about the same place.

D,

I'm using a Michelin 1:200,000 Battle of Normandy commemorative touring map which is kind of limiting. I'm working on a tidied-up campaign for HPS' PzC:Normandy'44. Sometimes I wonder why, since the game system is a bit pants, but I've been plugging away at it for a couple of years now, adding and correcting bits and pieces, that it's become a handy repository for this kind of info, even if it never gets played

Jon

[JonS]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

[A] Normandy example of this is the famed but ill fated 15th companies of the PzGren regiments of 12th Pz SS, both of which were also quite unofficial and do not appear in records beyond divisional ones and the ever so precious Lagekarten and Stellungskarten.

You wouldn't happen to have a TOE for these companies would you? I have one source (Zet) that suggests they were aufkl, while another simply lists them with three PAK 40 in each company, which doesn't seem consistent with an aufkl role.

Cheers

Jon

[Kingfish]

These two site may help:

HJ OOB

and

12th SS PZ

The second link is from a miniatures wargame site, so the OOB is not very detailed.

[Dandelion]

Elementary dear Jon, elementary This is nowhere near Kingfish and his butcher platoon quests.

First source is correct, the companies were recce and organised exactly as Kradschützen (motorcycle) companies of Panzergrenadierdivision Panzergrenadier regiments, but equipped with Kübelwagen. They were raised as such companies, before the order came to transform into a Panzerdivision instead. Rather than dropping these companies, the 12th simply kept them and lied about the fact.

Such companies used the K.St.N.1111 and was organised as follows, to be ridiculously precise:

Kompanietrupp

with

- Company CO

- Commander of the company vehicle park (who rode a motorcycle)

- 3 Messengers (one also Hornist, another also Scherenfernrohrträger) all these using one motorcycle with sidecar

- 3 motorcycle messengers, one motorcycle each.

- 2 drivers each with a large Pkw, resembling perhaps the SAS Chevys a little.

- A medic.

---

3 Motorcycle platoons, but in our case Volkswagen platoons

Each with

Zugtrupp

with

- Platoon CO

- Messenger (also Hornist)

- 2 motorcycle messengers, each with a bike.

- 2 drivers, each with a heavy Pkw as above.

- a medic

Granatwerfertrupp

with

- Mortar crew with one mortar and a Pkw.

Three Gruppen

all with

- 9 man recon squads, in our case mounted in 2 volkswagen per squad.

---

Company also had a

sMG Gruppe

- Group CO

- Rangefinder NCO

- 2 messengers on motorbikes with sidecars (the two above sitting in the sidecars)

- 2 sMG with crews mounted in a volkswagen each.

---

And

Gefechtstroß

- Hauptfeldwebel

- Gerät NCO (er, can't translate - "Device" NCO)

- Weapons NCO with one assistant.

- Medical NCO

- Company clerk

- Mechanic

- 2 Cooks

- 6 drivers and a corpral commanding them.

- 5 trucks, 1 heavy Pkw, two motorcycles.

---

And

Instandstzungstrupp

with

- Mechanics NCO

- 3 mechanics, one riding a motorbike, two riding a Kleiner Instandsetzungskraftwagen Kfz 2/40.

---

And

Gepäcktroß

- Er, accountant NCO sort of

- Shoemaker

- Tailor

- Driver

- 1 truck.

In all 4/24/150 (Off/NCO/Enl.).

But no Pak's.

When the 12th SS was ordered to transform, the Panzergrenadier companies were all to be equipped with a platoon Pak/Flak each. But they never were. This might perhaps have created the misunderstanding.

The 15./26 was commanded by Oblt Bayer (yup, an army guy), the 15./25 by Hauptsturmführer Büttner who however was killed June 8th.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Andreas]

Geraet = equipment

The large 'chevy-like' vehicle would not have been Kfz 11 (or higher - the Einheitskraftwagen) by any chance?

Linkypoo

Accountant-type NCO = Zahlmeister? In which case maybe paymaster?

[JonS]

Many thanks. Presumably the mortars are 81mms. Would the Gerat NCO be the weapons repair/maintenance guy, similar to the tiffy (articifer) in a B/CW unit?

[ May 09, 2005, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Grimthane]

Please excuse my ignaorance, but what was the job description of the Hornist?

I have a very silly picture in my head of a company of VWs storming into battle led by a bugler on a Harley.

[Dandelion]

Thanks Andreas Yes I meant the Zahlmops and your translation is better - paymaster. The vehicles listed in Sollstärke were mittlerer gl.Pkw. mit Gerätkasten (Kfz.15) and Gefechtskraftwagen (Kfz 18).

Jon, I am too ignorant of your tiffy to confirm the comparison, but Gerät was (is) a classification of equipment (thanks again A) as distinct from weapons (but not all equipment except weapons). The weapons NCO (Waffenunteroffizier, aka Waffenmeister) as listed took care of maintenance and repair of weapons, with his assistance. A person with expertise in both types of equipment would use the "WuG" appendix to his rank or title.

Grim, at least as late as the Balkan campaign of 41, German units could use buglers in combat (not leading charges though). Maybe later too, just haven't read of it myself. More effective than blowing whistles you know. So the Hornist wasn't all ceremonial The 15./25 actually performed an insane charge much like the one you imagine. But they used only their available motorbikes (the initial charge - follow ups used VWs). Though they were accompanied by Wünsches Panthers, it didn't go well at all.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[JonS]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dandelion:

[A]15th companies of the PzGren regiments of 12th Pz SS

You wouldn't happen to have a TOE for these companies would you? I have one source (Zet) that suggests they were aufkl, while another simply lists them with three PAK 40 in each company</font>