Need Info on German unit in Normandy

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by JonS:

Actually, hmm. The full listing for the second one is 15./SS-Panser-Grenadier-Regiment 26 (gp). Would the (gp) be for gepanzert, i.e. mounted in SPW 250s and/or 251s?

Correct.

From the HJ OOB website I linked:

"Despite the moniker "Panzer-Grenadier", only one bataillon was truly gepanzert (armoured): III./SS-Panzergrenadierregiment 26, equipped with SPW's."

[JonS]

Right, but 15./26 wasn't part of III./26. Zet sez that 'other elems' were at least partially equipped with SPWs, and gives as examples SS-Pio-Bn 12 and SS-PzAufkl-Abt 12.

So, ok, 15./26 was armoured. And probably had some Paks.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

Good to see the usual suspects are here and hard at it. All that is needed to complete this picture is for Dorosh to pop in with the names of each tank crewman,

I could find the names of the fatal casualties, but that's as close as I get.

If you want to know tank names and commanders of the Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) of 5 Cdn Armd Div in Italy, however, I just made a nice find in the regimental history as far as that goes...

Good thread, look forward to playing the inevitable scenarios. Hopefully in CMX2, eh, wot...

Oh, and I still owe JonS a turn of St. Lambert - trying to find time. Just got back into town two nights ago and right back to work. Have a date tonight, so you lose out, Jon. Shall get to it over the weekend.

You know, the history of the 1st Hussars is in our university library if you really want to know some names, I could at least find the squadron and regimental COs....but I suspect Kingfish has those already in any event...

[Kingfish]

Any chance your university library has a map of the area around Fontaine-Henry?

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by JonS:

Right, but 15./26 wasn't part of III./26. Zet sez that 'other elems' were at least partially equipped with SPWs, and gives as examples SS-Pio-Bn 12 and SS-PzAufkl-Abt 12.

So, ok, 15./26 was armoured. And probably had some Paks.

You really want them to have those Paks don't you? Building a scenario are we?

Well they didn't, sorry. Nor were they armoured, any of them.

I'll refrain from commenting on Zet and his homepage. The original source that he is referring to is a microfilm roll in the army section (RH) of the BA/MA. Strength returns, it seems.

The 15th companies did not exist officially, you need the Divisional history* to track them. They disappear in october 1943 from official rolls, after the Befehl zur Umgliederung*. their respective feldpostnummer disappears also.

Leaves us all wondering what Zet is listing, doesn't it? Well...

In the Zustandsbericht - the official strength return - of the 12th SS on June 1st they list that the Stab plus Stabskompanie of their Panzergrenadier-Regiment 25 (mot) contained a motorcycle platoon, a medic platoon, 3 heavy paks, 6 lmgs and a signal platoon. The HQ coy of 26th (gp) lists a motorcycle platoon, a medic platoon, 3 heavy paks, 6 lmg, a signal platoon (mot) and a SPW unit that I can't make out what it contains (blurred).

Such a HQ company used K.St.N.1104. Comparing the strength returns above with authorised equipment and numbers reveal the deviance from official establishment.

I used the same method for the K.St.N (and indeed KAN) 1111 that you asked about. The tables were used by all Panzergrenadier regiments of all Panzergrenadier divisions. Well some used 1112 but that's a long and boring story. The 12th SS was ordered to use this table as per Aufstellungsbefehl of June 24th. They couldn't be all true to it - my list included the 1111 with local 12th SS modification of exchanging a lot of motorcycles for vw's, plus reducing the amount of NCOs in the companies. These were the deviances from formal organisation that I know of.

If you need a unit with three paks, use the HQ coys Pak platoons. Do you want the companies listed in detail for scenario design?

Cheerio

Dandelion

* Kriegsgeschichte der 12.SS-Panzerdivision "Hitlerjugend" (H Meyer)

** SS-Führungshauptamt, Amt II Org.Abt.Ia/II Tgb.Nr.1660/43 g-Kdos.

[ May 13, 2005, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Dandelion ]

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonS:

[qb] Actually, hmm. The full listing for the second one is 15./SS-Panser-Grenadier-Regiment 26 (gp). Would the (gp) be for gepanzert, i.e. mounted in SPW 250s and/or 251s?

Correct.

</font>

[JonS]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

I feel like a troll because I sense you need them there for some purpose Jon.

No, not at all. I'm just trying to reconcile seemingly conflicting info.

Essentially, it seems that you are saying that BA-MA RH 10/321 (which is where the Paks and SPWs in 15./25 and /26 come from) is wrong. Or that Zet has transcribed it - or read it - incorrectly.

[Dandelion]

Not at all.

Essentially I am providing you with a number of sources to further your own research. You must decide what you believe in yourself of course, I am merely attempting to provide basis for your decision.

BA/MA microfilm rolls contain photographs of documents. They are not wrong, simply photos. When referring to a such in a footnote, you usually name the document, then the roll ID and if you're nice, the flick. That way the reader can idnetify the roll and find it himself. But we are not informed by Zetterling what document he has been studying on this roll, thus we do not know what this source really is (an Army report? Army Group strength return? Could be a recepie for Lasagna, it doesn't say). Thus we have no possibility of evaluating the comparative accuracy of this document. Only a person actually visiting the BA/MA looking the roll up will ever know.

Here is where Dr Tessin enters the stage. This crazy geezer spent decades in the BA/MA compiling information available in thousands and thousands of rolls into his various works. Nobody knows how he kept his sanity (if indeed he did), but what he created was a tremendously handy reference for researchers of the German army. God knows how many thousands of man-hours it has saved. Anyway, Dr Tessin is strong on static fact but weak on events. You never cope by just reading him (and Dr Niehorsters errata, which is essential since nobody corrected Tessins typos before print, and typos are lethal in military history). In our case, Dr Tessin merely mentions that companies 9.,10.,11. and 12./26 were armoured and mounted in halftracks, whereas 15./26 was not. Same goes for 15./25. Not much but an obvious contradiction.

If you're in real luck, you have a quality unit history or two to lean upon, to complete Dr Tessin. Regrettably, these are very few but one of the very best available is that on the 12th SS. Hubert Meyers book (he was the Ia - operations officer - of the division). Zetterling makes very frequent reference to this book in his text on the 12th. Which is puzzling - Meyer explicitly lists the 15th companies as non armoured, containing no Paks, no flamethrowers. Meyers book contains rare strength returns and interviews with members of these companies. Meyer also explain the K.St.N. tables ordered and their local adjustment - the exact content of a K.St.N. can be found with Dr Tessin.

What you will also need for a complete picture is the enemy point of view. Here Michael Reynolds has done sterling work (be it overly mean against the allies IMHO) with his Steel Inferno - a popular book on the forum here. Reynolds makes about half a dozen references to these companies, they figure in several pages and appear in several battles covered in some detail, and nowhere mentions any Paks or flamethrowers or any armour. In fact in his appendix to the book, he explicitly states the companies have "motorcycles". Though Zetterling does not mention Reynolds, the casualty analysis that he implies is unique to Reynolds book, so he must have gotten it from someone who did read it.

One need not read Reynolds. One can acquire the splendid Canadian War Diaries, many of them well publicised and some available for free from Bath (well, printing costs of course). Here the Reginas - who fought and utterly spanked the 15./25 - makes no mention of any Paks. They encounter Paks, but these can readily be identified as 12./26 guns.

Zetterling also makes no reference to Kurt Meyers Grenadiere. Embarassing as the tone of this book is, the author does make frequent reference to the 15./25 which was a special company to him, especially detailed is the disastrous attack on Bretteville where Horst von Büttner died (June 8th). He also mentions 16./26. Again no armour, no Paks, no flamethrowers. He also calls them motorcycle companies - their actual title, be it that they didn't have as many bikes as they were supposed to. Meyer also states that 15./26. had amphibious vw's, i.e. schwimmwagen. He describes one blowing up. I find no other reference to these, maybe that was the one they had.

So in my estimation of available data, I seem to end up with an array of passive sources (i.e. sources not mentioning phenonema that would normally demand attention, e.g. flamethrowers and heavy Pak and armoured halftracks), two sources specific about how the companies were actually organised and equipped with one of them being very detailed indeed. Sources include unit commanders and unit administrators, and together the authors can present rather a formidable research.

Against this we have the roll ID from Zetterling, containing a document, the identity of which we do not know. Apparently it lists the companies to have heavy weaponary identical to HQ companies of corresponding regiments, possessing (together) six of the total of 12 Paks available in the 12th SS on June 1st. Plus flamethrowers. We also have a link to miniature wargaming that confirms the presence of the paks.

That is as far as I am able to come in this isue. You take it from there.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[ May 13, 2005, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Dandelion ]

[Kingfish]

Zetterling also makes no reference to Kurt Meyers Grenadiere. Embarassing as the tone of this book is, the author does make frequent reference to the 15./25 which was a special company to him, especially detailed is the disastrous attack on Bretteville where Horst von Büttner died (June 8th).

The defeat of the 12th SS

Scroll down about halfway to the paragraph that begins with "Meyer's plan...".

[Dandelion]

That looks like a quality compilation of available sources on the Bretteville action, offering both sides perspective.

Interesting analysis there by Haller, IMHO. He does not at all take such a grim view upon the allies as Reynolds does. Haller sounds German but this is a Canadian right?

Kurt Meyer is best read like this IMHO, referred to and compiled, so you get the many fascinating (subjective) accounts out of him, but need not labour through his boybook style of writing.

In his book Meyer also mentions that the 15th company men used what motorcycles they had, and the rest mounted the Panthers. "As in the East" or somesuch comment.

Meyers thoughts as presented was marked by his latest experience of the Western Allies - which was in Greece in 41 - and his experiences in the East. Bluff and brute force had always paid off and saved German lives. But against a resolute opponent who calls the bluff it totally backfires. In 41 a defending allied unit might well have collapsed before a massed tank shock assault - indeed it happened several times. Meyers problem was that he didn't realise that the enemy could no longer be shocked into submission, and when they just stayed put and returned fire I don't really think Meyer knew what the h*** to do next. I believe Max Wünsche was in the same frame of mind. Well, my personal analysis there.

But we were at the 15./25 here, I'll try to stick to topic for once.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Waycool]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

[One need not read Reynolds. One can acquire the splendid Canadian War Diaries, many of them well publicised and some available for free from Bath (well, printing costs of course).

Cheerio

Dandelion [/QB]

What is BATH ?? Is it an online resource? I would be interested in the Canadian War Diaries for WW2.

[Dandelion]

Oh sorry, Bath is a wonderful city in the UK of no relevance whatsoever here, unless you're as fond of Jane Austen as my wife is. But The British Public Records Office - situated in Kew actually I think - is for reasons I have never really grasped called "Bath" in British research references. I never spend time to try and understand the British, since one cannot, no matter how one tries. I just repeat what they say, and smile.

If you need the British records, you should go here instead. It's not an online site (yet) but you'll be able to find your way to the documents you need online, probably, and then order them.

But you don't. Seeing as you're a Canadian [spying in profile] it will be considerably easier, faster and cheaper to collect your needs here. Unless of course it is war diaries of UK units you want.

Mhm. Just playing around in there (first visit) I found this orgasmic page which - though wrong war - seems to indicate you have an unfairly facile path ahead.

In fact, having played around in there, I am aggravated. Research is for grave people and real information should be fought for, yanked out of the cold dead hands of the corps of some vengeful archive employee, hidden behind incomprehensible series of numbers in a paper archive and even if you do find it, it should be half-possible to read at best. Hieroglyphs - now that's a challenge. This... this is turning the whole struggle into some kind of frolic internet playground, where quite ordinary people might acctually stumble over information. What sad times we live in.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[JonS]

Thanks D, I really appreciate the time and effort you put in to these questions.

Just a quick clarification ( ). You wrote:

Apparently it lists the companies to have heavy weaponary identical to HQ companies of corresponding regiments, possessing (together) six of the total of 12 Paks available in the 12th SS on June 1st. Plus flamethrowers.

Did you mean to say 6 of the 12 available in each PzGr Regt (i.e., if we exclude the mythical three in 15./, three at Regt HQ plus three with each bn), or did you mean that there were only 12 Paks in the whole div?

Other than that, I've gone with your description of 15./25 and 15./26. For the reasons outlined above.

Oh, BTW, the Australians are starting to put the WWII unit war diaries on line too now. There's nothing from NWE, obviously, but interesting nonetheless. I don't have a link handy, but hopefully some silly dingo will be along shortly with one.

Cheers

Jon

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by JonS:

[QB] Thanks D, I really appreciate the time and effort you put in to these questions.

Well like I wrote this is my idea of having fun

Just a quick clarification

Uh-oh... :eek:

Did you mean to say 6 of the 12 available in each PzGr Regt (i.e., if we exclude the mythical three in 15./, three at Regt HQ plus three with each bn), or did you mean that there were only 12 Paks in the whole div?

Yes that reference was a bit shady, I'll restart from scratch rather than invite you to my calculations (I was trying to trace all guns in the division).

The division as a whole reports 24 Pak 40s on (in?) June 6th. 6 guns were at Regt Hq (3 in each). All infantry battallions (that is, all six of them) had 3 each (in a platoon in the heavy companies), a total of 18. All in all 24.

In addition they report four "7.62cm I.K.II.290 ®". Whatever that means, but obviously they were Soviet 76mm Paks. The 12.SS-HJ thus had 4 Paks in excess of authorised strength (total 28, authorised was only 24). These four served in the divisional escort company.

All Paks accounted for then but, of course, any such serving in the unofficial companies would not have been reported so it does not necessarily help. But following deliveries I can see 16 Pak 40 delivered in october 43, then a further 8 in december 43, then four more in february 44. Nothing more before june, so it seems we might trust the 12SSHJ had the 28 guns that they reported.

"Silly Dingo" I wonder what type of reaction we will see to that comment.

I'll go fetch the org's for the HQ Coys, Heavy coys and escort coy, with 12SSHJ adjustment june 6 (or 1st if it's not in the 6th report), and list them for you separately below.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Dandelion]

Regimental HQ Coy first out then. This is the K.St.N.1104, Ausf.B (Ausf A concerned 2 battallion regiments, B 3 battallion) issued in november 1943, with the adjustments made by 12.SS.HJ due to shortages and other necessities. The following is the HQ Coy of 25th regiment mind you, all officers named are 25th names from June 6, 26th differs a trifle in organisation and of course had other officers

Official name is Stab und Stabskompanie eines Panzergrenadier-Regiments

STAB

- Regiment Commander (Staf Kurt Meyer)

- Regiment Aide (Regementsadjutant - Ostuf Schümann)

- Vehicle park officer (Offizier der Kraftf.Parktr. - this was a Beamte)

- Staff Officer (Ordonnanzoffizier - Ostuf König)

- Provisions officer (Verpflegungsoffizier - Ustuf Gille)

- Regimental Intelligence (and signals) officer (Nachr.Offz - Ustuf Stejskal).

- Regimental train officer (Führer des Gepäcktrosses des ganzen Rgts - Ostuf Bäder)

- Regiment Doctor (Stubaf Dr Gatternigg)

- Regiment Dentist (Ostuf Dr Stift)

- Regimental clerk (NCO) (Gefechtsschreiber)

- Commander (NCO) of the motorcycle messenger group (Führer der Kraftradmeldestaffel)

- 2 messengers (Melder), one of which is also the Scherenfernrohrträger). Riding a motorcycle with sidecar.

- 5 motorcycle messengers, bikes with no sidecars.

- 4 Drivers.

- 2 light cars (Kübelwagen type)

- 2 medium cars (Kfz 11-15 type)

Sum: 7 officers, 2 NCOs, 11 other ranks, 11 rifles, 7 pistols, 2 MPi, 4 cars, 2 motorbikes with sidecar, 5 motorbikes.

STABSKOMPANIE

Kompanietrupp

- Company Commander (Ustuf Kneipp)

- Kompanietrupp Commander (NCO)

- Medical NCO

- Messenger

- 2 Motorcycle messengers with bikes

- Motorcycle driver for Medical NCO (the NCO rides sidecar).

- Driver

- 1 Medium car (Kfz 11-15 type)

SUM: 1 officer, 2 NCOs, 5 other ranks, 5 rifles, 2 pistols, 1 MPi, 1 car, 2 motorcycles with sidecar, 2 without.

Recce (Erkunder) platoon

Zugtrupp

- Platoon commander.

- Zugtrupp commander.

- Messenger (motorcycle)

- 3 motorcycle messengers with motorbikes.

- 2 Drivers.

- Medic

- 2 light cars (Kübelwagen type)

and 3 Gruppen each with

3 Kraftfahrradschützengruppen (motorcycle squads) mounted in 18 motorcycles with sidecars.

SUM: 1 officer, 5 NCOs, 46 other ranks, 34 Rifles, 14 pistols, 4 MPi, 6 lmg, 2 cars, 21 motorcycles with sidecars.

Heavy antitank platoon (schw.Panz.Jäg.Zug)

Zugtrupp

- Platoon commander

- Commander of the Zugtrupp

- Messenger

- Motorcycle driver

- Driver

and 3 Geschütze

- Three Pak 40 with crew, light towing vehicle (Sdkfz 11 type)

- 1 3t ammunition truck (terraingoing supposedly - but 12.SS.HJ had acute shortages of terraingoing trucks and will have used non-terraingoing type).

SUM: 1 officer, 4 NCOs, 26 other ranks, 17 rifles, 10 pistols, 4 MPi, 3 lmg, 3 Pak 40, 1 truck, 1 car, 3 towing vehicles.

Signals platoon

Zugtrupp

- Platoon commander

- Commander of the Zugtrupp (who is actually one of the troop commanders below)

- 2 Signallers (wire)/motorcyclists

- 1 Signaller (wireless)/motorcyclist

- Driver

Signal troops

- 1st to 3rd Medium Field Cable troops (mot) each with troop commander, 4 signallers (wire) a driver and a 2t truck.

- 1st and 2nd Portable Wireless troops (12.SS.HJ. used Gustav) each with troop commander, five signallers (wireless) and two light cars (Kübelwagen type).

- 3rd and 4th portable Wireless troops each with troop commander, five signallers and a 2t truck.

- 1st to 4th Light Radio Troops each with troop commander, 2 signallers (wireless), a driver and a 2 tonne truck specially equipped with Fu8.

SUM: 1 officer, 9 NCO's, 41 other ranks, 50 rifles, 1 MPi, 11 vehicles (both car and truck), 1 motorcycle with sidecar. Note here: I am unsure if the 12.SS.HJ exchanged some of these trucks for armoured cars (specially equipped). I think they must have. This would concern the Light Radio Troops (1st - 4th) and would replace these with a radio AC (wheeled) with crew.

Maintenance (Instandsetzungstrupp)

- Troop commander (traditional title Schirrmesiter, the schirr being the leather bands that horses have around their faces, whatever you cal lthem).

- Vehicle NCO

- 3 mechanics (vehicle)

- Radio mechanic (Panzerfunkwart)

- Driver

- A car (vw type) and a 2t truck specially equipped (normally a Kfz 2/40 but this need not be the case with 12.SS.HJ).

SUM: 2 NCOs, 5 other ranks, 6 rifles, 1 pistol, 2 vehicles.

Combat Supply (Gefechtstross)

- The Spieß

- Radio (Mechanic) NCO (Funkmeister)

- Ammunitions NCO with the traditional title Feuerwerker

- Equipment NCO

- Field Kitchen NCO

- Signaller (wireless)

- Radio mechanic/Driver

- Weapons mechanic

- Clerk

- Field cook

- 3 drivers

- 3t truck (supposedly terraingoing) for fuel transport.

- 3t truck (supposedly terraingoing) with field kitchen.

- 3t truck equipped with Fu8 (wireless signal set).

- Light car (vw type)

SUM: 5 NCOs, 8 other ranks, 10 rifles, 2 pistols, 1 MPi, 4 vehicles.

Medical transport group (Hilfskrankenträgerstaffel)

Also the music corps of the regiment.

- Commander (also Musikmeister)

- Assistant commander (also Korpsführer (as in Musikkorps)

- 26 Musician NCOs (of which 8 were Musician NCOs).

- 10 Musicians (of which 5 were corporals)

- A bus with more than 30 seats.

SUM: 1 officer, 27 NCOs, 11 other ranks, 1 rifle, 38 pistols, 1 vehicle. One must remember here that the 25 and 26.SS.HJ. were ordered to provide a music corps each. In effect however, these guys were stretcher bearers and medics.

Weapons maintenance (Waffenmeisterei)

- Weapons Officer(Waffenmeister, specialised in Pak and i.G.)

- Weapons NCO (Waffenmeister, specialised as above)

- 2 Weapons mechanics

- Driver

- 3t Truck.

SUM: 1 officer, 1 NCO, 3 other ranks, 3 rifles, 1 pistol, 1 vehicle.

Train (Gepäcktross)

- Regiment clerk

- Regiment Paymaster (Rechnungsführer)

- 2 drivers

- Tailor

- Shoemaker

- a light car and a 3t truck.

SUM: 2 NCOs, 4 other ranks, 5 rifles, 1 pistol, 2 vehicles.

TOTAL SUM: 11 officers, 1 Beamte, 59 NCOs, 160 other ranks. 78 Pistols, 13 MPi, 9 lmg, 3 sPak, 33 vehicles, 32 motorcycles (27 with sidecar).

Of the 160 other ranks, three positions were manned by "Hiwis", don't know which.

Well that's that, be back with the others.

Cheerio

Dandelion