Los Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 "So....are you saying its easy or common that one could hit a target the size of 2 men at say around 100 yards away and about 3 stories high on a roof with a rifle grenade in 1 shot? (judging from the BoB scene)" What a highly trained paratrooper? Who by the way would have been designated the Rifle grenade guy in his squad, having spent months leading up to the invasion going to the range weekly. I'd say it's perfectly possible. It's all in the training. One can be lethal with any weapon so long as they train with it. Los 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Originally posted by Los: "So....are you saying its easy or common that one could hit a target the size of 2 men at say around 100 yards away and about 3 stories high on a roof with a rifle grenade in 1 shot? (judging from the BoB scene)" What a highly trained paratrooper? Who by the way would have been designated the Rifle grenade guy in his squad, having spent months leading up to the invasion going to the range weekly. I'd say it's perfectly possible. It's all in the training. One can be lethal with any weapon so long as they train with it. Los I'm inclined to agree with Los - though by January 1945 (when the incident in question took place) I suspect the number of Normandy vets in the D-Day paratroop battalions was low... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco QNS Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 About the rifle grenades, in the Pacific, this report: Second Marine Division Report on Gilbert Islands-Tarawa Operation you can find the following cites -and many others, on all weapons- : r. The 2.36 Rocket Launcher AT, M-1 (Bazooka) was not used in this operation inasmuch as they were received at WELLINGTON too late to issue to the troops. However, it is believed that this weapon might have been effective against the lighter emplacements encountered provided that the electrical firing system could be kept dry during the ship-to-shore movement. s. The M9-A1 AT rifle grenade was found to be very effective against light tanks, the smaller emplacements, and the apertures of larger emplacement. It is recommended that the universal launcher now available for issue that can be used on the Carbine, M1, and M1903 rifles be issued in lieu of the launcher now in use in this command, and that a replacement launcher be packed with each box of grenades. r. The "Bazooka" was not available and therefore not used. s. The AT Grenades were somewhat effective against pill boxes but due to the structure of the pill box walls they were unable to penetrate and were only effective when they could be projected through the small gun slots in the pill box. They proved most effective against the light tankette. 15. The 2.36 Rocket Launcher A.T., M-1 was not used. 16. The A T grenade was moderately effective against the weaker pill boxes. r. Not used. s. Yes, when fired into the entrances. r. No. s. No. Had it been available, it would have been of great value in destroying Jap emplacements which held up our advance and caused nany casualties. P. The 2.36 Rocket Launcher A.T., M-1 (Bazooka) was not used by this LT. Q. The M-9 A.T. grenade was used by this LT against enemy emplacements and pillboxes and was not effective. The M-9 A-1 A.T. grenade was not available. r. None used s. M9 grenades were not sensitive enough to detonate on impact on sand covered emplacements R. None observed. S. Yes, the M9AT grenade was effective; but it is believed that the M9A-1 would be much more effective. Anti-tank grenades - Some discharges became ruptured. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Ah come on, that shot was pure luck. You all know it, admit it. Take note, i never said the shot was impossible and i never said the BS was steaming. Ok, jokes aside, im now very curious how much actual training went into handling the rifle grenades. Is that true Los? I totally agree, it is all about the training. Id say the determining factor would be in the training of this weapon. Sure we all know these guys were highly trained ass kickers(scientific term) but how much did they actually train with the rifle grenades. I just gotta know now. But then again if anybody could make a shot like that, it would be 1 of them. Ive now opened the BS cabinet and am contemplating whether i should take this sucker out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dressler Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: QUOTE]I'm inclined to agree with Los - though by January 1945 (when the incident in question took place) I suspect the number of Normandy vets in the D-Day paratroop battalions was low... [/QB]I thought that incident was in the Market Garden episode, which would've been Sept '44. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Determinant Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Originally posted by MeatEtr: Ah come on, that shot was pure luck. You all know it, admit it. Take note, i never said the shot was impossible and i never said the BS was steaming. My favourite all-time BS lucky shot is in that fine historical record of a film: 'Blackhawk Down'. You know the bit where the Delta Operator throws the hand grenade 100m through a window the size of an A4 piece of paper. A man with those skills should be making big money in the major leagues rather than whatever, in comparison, derisory SF pay the US Govt is pleased to shell out. I have to say that the scene was a welcome chuckle in an otherwise humourless film. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 First off let me say I did the rifle grenade research for inclusion in CM, because if you recall, they were not initially included in the game. Apart from traditional written research, books, manuals, AARs, Combat Bulletins published in WW2, and careful scrutinizing of documentary footage (where it's easy to see a prevalence of rifle grenades on rifles or guys carrying the adapters already hooked to the ends of their rifles if you know what you are looking for.) I also interviewed a number of vets which vetted my research through a nice BS filter. One of the guys in our unit has a dad that was a 3-war vet. He was a Company Commander in the 82d having jumped into Normandy and all the way through to the end. I had the opportunity to speak to him and a number of other vets that served with him and in other units during a gathering they were having in CT. I must say that they were a little taken aback by my questioning since they're idea of telling war stories is about how many Dames they saw in Paris or other stuff. Once I started firing off technical/tactical questions about things they hadn't thought about in a while they quickly rose to the challenge. At the time I was knee deep in Rifle grenade research so it was fortuitous. BTW There were a set of twins there that was in the same platoon (29th ID) from Omaha beach to the end of the war. Two of the guys I talked to were rifle grenade guys and had the same experience as RG guys. For the both guys it was their dedicated weapon. (Others I asked confirmed that the rifle grenade guy wasn't a spur of the moment hey you assignment, but one designated in advance.) He even had a guy that carried an extra satchel of grenades with him, and always went into contact with the rifle grenade adapter attached, as it takes a bit of doing to get it on and not to mention clearing your weapon and having the right boster cartidge. It's not something you really want to fumble with on the fly, it's something you go into action with already configured for grenade firing. (BTW the 29th ID guy carried a carbine for personal defense and the garand w/ rifle grenade always ready. The 82d gunner had a pistol.)It's not something you do on the fly or as an after thought. In the months leading up to D-Day these guys went to the range weekly and hhe fired hundreds of grenades and got very with the weapon. (Same with bazookas and many other weapons.) Keep in mind also that 82-101 fought in spurts and were pulled out of the line for extended periods of time. While the first couple of days were rest periods the majority of the rest of the time was spent in hard training, ranges, rucks and field problems and parachute jumps. (all good units do this. If you are not actually in combat ops you are either resting or training even in the field) New replacements were absorbed and put through the rigourous training like everyone else. My final bs filter is that I have a large amount of expereince in combat arms (25 years) and have some knowledge of what trained soldiers can do with weapons as well as what it takes to get them to that level of expertise and sustain them. I myself have a fair amount of time behind both an M79 and an M203. Mastering these weapons is a function of training and firing enough rounds. It doesn't take a lot of time to get very good at this provided the right resources, range time and ammo). There were several time periods where I could put a round through a window at 100 yards with one or two shots. It's the whole point of being a professional. (It's all in the "english") Then if I went months without using it it would take a box of rounds on the range to get back to this level of expertise. (sidebar I once blasted a man sized target at 100 yards, with an HE 203 right in the nuts at 100 yards. I was aiming for the guy-not the nuts. You can imagine that the little brown guys I was with were dully ipressed). Could that guy have made that shot every time: no. Is it BS that he made a one shot kill. No. It was a good shot, but maybe he WAS a good shot. Los [ December 28, 2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Los ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Shirt Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Well said, Los. I too am a 25 year vet, Infantry, retired as a First Sergeant. That's what drove my initial response to redwolf's and MeatEtr's posts, in that were they basing their comments on actual real world, life experiences or what? It is one thing to make those kind of statements and judgements if one has the experience, training and knowledge to back it up. On the other hand...well, I'll just leave it at that. I do have a question for you, as you said you did the research for the CM model. How prevalent did you find the use of the RG HEAT in an AT role? My research (to include discussions with WWII and Korea vets) leads me to conclude that using the RG HEAT against a moving tank that had infantry support was tantamount to suicide. The preferred tactic was to strip off or pin the supporting infantry, force the tank to button up and then maneuver for a flank, close range shot. But, as the vets I talked to told me, they'd rather use the bazooka for the tank and use the RG guy to keep the enemy infantry pinned. What are your conclusions? [ December 28, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: 1st Shirt ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Originally posted by Dressler: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: QUOTE]I'm inclined to agree with Los - though by January 1945 (when the incident in question took place) I suspect the number of Normandy vets in the D-Day paratroop battalions was low... I thought that incident was in the Market Garden episode, which would've been Sept '44. [/QB]</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 The guys I talked to almost never fired at Tanks, they used them against enemy positions, they used Bazookas for AT work which were just as prevalent at the Platoon level. However I did uncover at least one (though it might have been two since it's been I think three years since I did the research) instances in my research where a Tiger tank was knocked out by a rifle grenade in NW Europe. IIIRC this w as avery luck shot with the round basically hitting a vision slit or something. Has anyone ever seen the great german training film "Men against Tanks"? It's made to familiarize soldiers on various AT devices available to foot soldiers from AT grenades up to Panzerschreks. The weapons are employed druing a battle (probably filmed at Grafenwohr) against "Russian" forces. They destroy, for real with live fire, probably 20 Russian tanks during the film. Very neat. But you see rifle grenades being fired, kampfpistole and other things. Los 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Shirt Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Originally posted by Los: IIIRC this w as avery luck shot with the round basically hitting a vision slit or something. I guess these were considered mobility kills. I remember on the sub-caliber LAW range at Fort Polk getting a mobility kill on an M-60 by hitting the driver's vision block (by pure luck) and starred it so bad the driver couldn't see. I remember the range weenies were more angry that I "hurt" their tank than considering what the odds of a hit like that were. [ December 28, 2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: 1st Shirt ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Wow, thanks for the posts Los and 1st Shirt. I just saw your edited/updated post on the first page 1st Shirt. You have certainly made a believer out of me. Since 1st Shirt has first hand experience and Los has researched this weapon and i have neither of these and you say the shot in question is not BS, then thats sure as hell good enough for me. Now that i know that, id be a fool to say otherwise. Thanks for the info fellas. Ive now taken this out of the BS cabinet, deservedly so. P.S. Welcome to the boards 1st Shirt, i hope to see more of you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Of course having said that, your mileage may vary in combat, however I have worked with a certain percentage of cool cucumbers in the past that know their way around executing a plan. Los 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Shirt Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Thank you, MeatEtr, that is very gracious of you. Regards, 1st Shirt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 A Military Encyclopedia Based on Operations in the Italian Campaigns, 1943-1945. Section 8.Grenades Grenades were used extensively by all Infantry units with excellent results. The fragmentation grenades were very effective for close-in fighting, for stopping hostile assaults, mopping up pill boxes and MG positions, and for clearing houses. In the attack and on patrols, Infantry soldiers habitually carried at least two fragmentation grenades. The fragmentation rifle grenade was also very effective, and with a little training soldiers became very proficient in its use. It was used against groups of personnel in the open, against MG positions, and in clearing houses by firing through open doorways and windows. Frequently it was used in conjunction with AT [Anti-Tank] grenades in attacking occupied houses; AT grenades were fired through doors or windows and the rifle grenades fired close to the house to inflict casualties as the occupants came out. The AT grenade was effectively used against armored vehicles, pill boxes, houses, and dug-in gun positions. This grenade had a terrific concussion effect as well as penetrating power. In one instance the use of AT grenades broke up a three tank attack on a company position at a time when artillery support was not available. [p. 176] In another instance a light tank was knocked out and the crew killed by hits from two AT grenades. The smoke (WP) [White Phosphorus] grenade was very effective in clearing the enemy from caves and dugouts, where at times fragmentation grenades would not do the job. On occasion they were used as incendiaries. Some preferred the WP grenade to the fragmentation grenade for general use. The offensive grenade was used very little when fragmentation grenades were available. Troops found the fragmentation grenade would do the same job as the offensive grenade and do it better. Section 23. Assault Team Weapons Assault teams armed with the rifle, the BAR, and the Bazooka were employed to a great extent against fortified houses and dugouts. The BAR formed the nucleus of the team. It was usually employed with a few riflemen as a base of fire, while the building was being investigated. The bazooka rocket had little effect on thick stone or concrete walls but was very effective through doors and windows. In many instances the anti-tank grenade was used in the same manner. The flame thrower was seldom used as an additional weapon in such assault teams. It was found that they were not essential in attacking houses since the bazooka rocket or anti-tank grenade fired through the door or window of a house usually sufficed. The flame thrower, however, was used to great advantage in assaulting pillboxes or well protected dugouts, since the bazooka rocket or anti-tank grenade failed to penetrate their reinforced walls. One reason for not using the flame thrower to a great extent was the lack of specialist operators. To operate it successfully in combat the soldier must be very proficient with the weapon and be able to keep it in proper adjustment. It was generally believed that these specialists should come from Combat Engineer units, and should be made available to the Infantry when needed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Lessons learned (5) Grenades. First Lieutenant JOHN C. AILES, 133rd Infantry. "It is my opinion that more emphasis should be placed on the use of the rifle grenade. On about 28 June, near CASTEGNETO, a right flank platoon was partially surrounded by about 50 Germans armed with machine guns, machine pistols and rifles. This platoon was in a dry river bed, and the surrounding country was very flat with a network of drainage and irrigation ditches that were somewhat grown up with brush. The Germans were about 100 yards from our positions so that we were unable to employ our mortars. The platoon had no grenade launchers, and were unable to dislodge the Germans by small arms fire. It is my opinion that these machine guns could have been knocked out or forced to withdraw if rifle grenades had been used on them." Captain ALBERT J. HOIHJELIE, 135th Infantry. "A white phosphorus rifle grenade can be made from a regular AT rifle grenade and a WP hand grenade. These were used to a good advantage at ANZIO. They should be made up by an ordnance company. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Originally posted by Los: Has anyone ever seen the great german training film "Men against Tanks"? Los Los, i have heard of this training film. How would i go about getting my hands on this? Is it available for download or purchase? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Shirt Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Mr. Tittles, your posts are good information, detailed and interesting reading as well as reinforcing what's been said so far on this subject in this thread. What were your sources? Regards, 1st Shirt [ December 28, 2003, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: 1st Shirt ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Originally posted by MeatEtr: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Los: Has anyone ever seen the great german training film "Men against Tanks"? Los Los, i have heard of this training film. How would i go about getting my hands on this? Is it available for download or purchase? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Ahh ha, thats where i heard of it, in the WWII mag. Thanks MD, i didn't realize it was readily available. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Try these two soruces: International Historic Films RZM RZM publishing While you are at it pick up "Die FrontSchau" or "Gebirsjager in Action" (same filmm differnt titles. Los 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Originally posted by 1st Shirt: Mr. Tittles, your posts are good information, detailed and interesting reading as well as reinforcing what's been said so far on this subject in this thread. What were your sources? Regards, 1st Shirt Information was cut n pasted from 'Lessons Learned' reports. These are US reports produced about the campaign in Sicily/Italy in this case. These pdf files are available online. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Originally posted by Los: Try these two soruces: International Historic Films RZM RZM publishing While you are at it pick up "Die FrontSchau" or "Gebirsjager in Action" (same filmm differnt titles. Los Ahh ok, thats what i was looking for, thanks for the links Los. I like the IHF site, large selection and they appear to be cheaper too. Anyways, was wondering how is "The Russian Front" 4 box volume set? Just curious before i sink $60 into it. Already got my shopping cart upto $80. Heck while im at it, what about the "Tanks" 3 box set? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 http://www.34infdiv.org/history/34lessons.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Originally posted by Photon: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dorosh: ie gammon bombs, Hawkin mines, etc. Are these in the game? I played a game last night with '44 pattern British Airborne ... </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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