Kingfish Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Bored at work, so thought I'd kill time with another off the wall what if. Lets assume Op Totalize was to have been delayed one day. We know that Phase I was a success, but Phase II ran smack into the counterattacking KG Meyer, who happened to be the only reserve the Germans had at the time. However, 2 hours prior to the launching of Op Totalize Meyer was ordered to take his division westward and assist in the defense of the Vire area. What would have been the outcome of Op Totalize, and the Normandy campaign as a whole, if the 12th SS did indeed move westward? To start, this would mean the only thing standing in the way of two allied armored divisions would have been the shattered remnants of the very green 89th ID, backed up by the 8 remaining Tigers of the 101st SS schwere Pz Abt. and assorted Luftwaffe flak units. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagwyn Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 And you are being paid for this? Tag 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 Simply sounds like more targets for maurading Thunderbolts to shoot up to me 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted May 18, 2006 Author Share Posted May 18, 2006 Originally posted by Tagwyn: And you are being paid for this? Tag Yes I am. King 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 18, 2006 Share Posted May 18, 2006 I think Simmonds would have made his bound to - or just north of - Falaise, but the attack would have halted there for a standard re-org, giving the Germans a chance to regroup and reinforce. At this time the 1 Can and 2 Br Armies were mentally adapted and organised for a series of 'bite-and'hold' operations (to use WWI terminology), but not to swiftly turn to exploitation. Acheiving Falaise (or thereabouts) within the first days of TOTALISE would have bought TRACTABLE (or it's equivalent) forward by a couple of days, potentially closing the gap a few days earlier too - though that of course depends on what the US were up to and German counter-moves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagwyn Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 WBS!!! Did you see the sig on this last post by JonS? Did this come from the U. of Oregon as well? Not even Andreas would believe such foul poppycock drivel. Tag 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted May 19, 2006 Author Share Posted May 19, 2006 Originally posted by JonS: I think Simmonds would have made his bound to - or just north of - Falaise, but the attack would have halted there for a standard re-org, giving the Germans a chance to regroup and reinforce. At this time the 1 Can and 2 Br Armies were mentally adapted and organised for a series of 'bite-and'hold' operations (to use WWI terminology), but not to swiftly turn to exploitation. I envision KG Wunsche being thrown into a counterattack against the Canadian 4th armored in an attempt to slow it down, while KG Meyer and whatever else the Germans could scrape together would try to establish a line along the high ground near Pontigny and Laison river. A big tank battle would ensue, as KG Wunsche collides with Halpenny force in the open fields near Bretteville. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 The ultimate conclusion of the Normandy campaign may have been altered by a few days but I suspect that's about it. Don't know what Simonds would have done, but with US forces still coming up from the south, I suppose there was an option to go for the rear of the Germans facing the Commonwealth rather than racing for Paris. Though I suspect they would have picked Paris anyway. If the Germans did form a defensive line on high ground as you suggest, Kingfish, about all that would have happened would have been a delay (maybe even a week or two) while a new full scale plan was drawn up to deal with it. My opinion would be that the Germans' strength in this situation would have been to get in a running battle and keep the Allies from drawing up devastating fire plans and 4 engine bomber support (as inaccurate as it was). A more aggressive defence, in other words. They couldn't do that with the Static Divisions, but with SS armour it was possible. Still, with all those Americans and French tanks streaking off to their south towards Paris, I'm not sure it would ultimately have made a difference. What would have made the Allies take their eyes off Paris, I wonder? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunwinglow Posted May 19, 2006 Share Posted May 19, 2006 Obvious way to sort out what might have happened is to do it in CMAK!! wun 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 I'd play it. Loving "Villas of Tuscany" BTW. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 Originally posted by wunwinglow: Obvious way to sort out what might have happened is to do it in CMAK!! wun Erm ... how? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted May 22, 2006 Author Share Posted May 22, 2006 Originally posted by JonS: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wunwinglow: Obvious way to sort out what might have happened is to do it in CMAK!! wun Erm ... how? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 well, yeah, that gives you a battle, but it doesn't really answer the 'what if ...', since that would require a map approx 15km x 15km, an OoB which includes several Cops worth of troops, and runs over a period of several-days-to-a-week. BTW, I think 'No holding back' has an OoB for Halpenny Force in it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Yes it does (No Holding Back, having the Halpenny force OoB). Halpenny Force Canadian Grenadier Guards and Supporting Arms Vanguard - AMY FORCE No. 1 sqn - Canadian Grenadier Guards 15 shermans, 4 fireflys 'C' Company - Lake Superior Regiment 14 universal carriers 2 humber scout cars 2 3 inch mortar carriers 12 half tracks 1 lorry Troop - 96th Anti-Tank Battery (17-pdr. M-10) 4 17pdr. M-10's ARV and Ammunition halftrack (CGG) Troop - Sherman Crab I Flails 5 sherman crab flails Section - Recon Troop CGG 2 Stuarts Recce Officer and No.2 section R.C.E. White Scout Car Armored car F.O.O. 23 Field Regt. (SP) Armoured O.P. 1 Ram tank (mobile observation post) --- Main Guard - SMITH FORCE No. 3 Sqn - Canadian Grenadier Guards 15 shermans, 4 fireflys F.O.O. 19 Field Regt. (SP) Armoured O.P. 'C' Company - Lake Superior Regiment 14 universal carriers 2 humber scout cars 2 3 inch mortar carriers 12 half tracks 1 lorry Reconnaissance Troop (Less one section) CGG 9 Stuarts Anti-Tank platoon - Lake Superior Regiment 4 universal carriers 2 6 pdr. (?) 1 lorry M.M.G. Platoon - Lake superior Regiment 4 MMG carriers ARV and Ammunition halftrack (CGG) Squadron (less one troop) Sherman Crab I Flails 10 sherman crab flails Two Sections - Royal Canadian Engineers 2 white scout cars 2 armoured cars F.O.O. 23 Field Regt. (SP) Armoured O.P. 1 Ram tank (mobile observation post) --- Advance Guard - HEADQUARTERS R.H.Q. Troop - Canadian Grenadier Guards 4 Sherman R.H.Q. - Lake Superior Regiment 2 Humbers 3 White Scout Cars REP. 23 Field Regt. (SP) Armoured O.P. 1 Ram tank (mobile observation post) Battery Commander 96 A/tk battery 1 sherman (?) Troop leader R.C.E. 1 White Scout car Anit-Aircraft Troop (CGG) (released to Williamson Force at Start line) 6 Crusaders --- Reserve - WILLIAMSON FORCE No. 2 Sqn - Canadian Grenadier Guards 15 shermans, 4 fireflys 'B' Company - Lake Superior Regiment 14 universal carriers 2 humber scout cars 2 3 inch mortar carriers 12 half tracks 1 lorry Anti-Tank platoon - Lake Superior Regiment 4 universal carriers 2 6 pdr. (?) 1 lorry M.M.G. Platoon - Lake superior Regiment 4 MMG carriers Sections - Royal Canadian Engineers 1 white scout car 1 armoured car F.O.O. 11 Medium Regt 1 Universal Carrier Battery (less one troop) 96th Anit-tank Battery 8 17-pdr. M-10s Anit-Aircraft Troop (CGG) (After release from ADVANCE guard HQ) 6 Crusaders 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted May 23, 2006 Author Share Posted May 23, 2006 Good lord, this is going to be one honkin' big scenario! But, hey, someone's gotta do it... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 IIRC, NHB has some graphics showing the layout of HF. It probably some useful maps, too - which area are you looking at (N-S, E-W)? I'll have a gander tonight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted May 24, 2006 Author Share Posted May 24, 2006 The map I am using is a 4960m x 2960m rectangle. It starts just north of St. Aignan de Cramsnil and ends at Cauvicourt and Haut Mesnil. The Caen / Falaise RR runs along the western mapedge. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 You've got mail. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 BTW, I was just re-reading your first post ... your 'what if' isn't really that off the wall. TOTALIZE was originally scheduled for the 9th, and was brought forward for what seemed like ok reasons at the time, but were nothing that Simmonds couldn' have said 'no' to. In other words, if he'd gotten up on the other side of the bed, TOTALIZE might well have gone off when it was originally scehduled ... 24 hours later. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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