Mark Gallear Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Just been designing a little scenario based on a real battle and have noticed some stark differences between CMAK and CMBB and what happened in real life. I have a fortified farmhouse with guns of various types placed round it and a squadron of Churchill’s mostly just firing AP but some with HE capability (Churchill 1s) coming into view. The first thing that struck me is that guns on turn 1 didn't like where I had placed them - in the open but dug in and decided to move. The result of this was the firefight started with half the guns moving in the open. Did the crew abandoned their guns and leg it. No, they calmly set them up and set about the Churchills. Unlike CMBB, most of the guns absorbed an awful lot of damage and did not break. I got the most powerful gun with the Churchill 1s but the others calmly fired back despite now been totally in the open my tank and infantry fire had little effect. My Churchill Is were targeted first and then I was left with just solid AP and the MGs. The firefight started much further away then historically happened. Historically a number of Churchills were immediately knocked out but the rest using solid AP had little trouble knocking these guns out according to eyewitness accounts - including 88mm guns, which I failed to encounter as I was stuck in place by these initial defenders! I don't mind AT gun survivability going up a notch but it now seems extremely difficult to knock them out. With infantry or solid shot fire almost impossible - something the commonwealth will be doing a lot of in this game! Also the AI pushing AT guns about in a defence game seems silly beyond belief. What gives with these new improvements :eek: ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 The TacAI doesn't like being under fire in the open, even if dug in, and will try to move toward the closest cover. This has been complained about for nearly three years now. Hopefully the next engine will improve on that behavior. There is indeed some historic precedent for AT guns being damaged or wrecked with solid shot, but it probably wasn't very common. BFC may not have wanted to make them too vulnerable to AP. Whether they went too far with that I can't say. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gallear Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 (Oh - what a big response - just Michael !) No the AT guns were moving in the open before been fired on - they had been given orders to hide whilst dug-in, indeed men given orders to hide in the house had run out into the open. It is Tunisia - so wide-open spaces - only rocks and scrub. (Tried removing some rocks near the house - to see if that will help. But annoying as I cannot put cover for the enemy to creep up on the house!) On the AP - as the large majority of British tanks fired only AP - firing AP at AT guns will now become a common event and is an important issue for CMAK to get right. Soon as I have designed it as well as I can within the historical framework, I will issue it with a piece at the end of the briefing - marked spolier as to what really happened in the real battle and everybody can play the scenario - then read the spoliler and then decide for themselves if the engine is working well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 I'd disagree about the guns being a lot harder to knock out. In every scenario I've played now that involves AT guns they still get knocked out *almost* as quickly as in CMBB. They certainly seem improved over CMBB, but it might just be that the terrain and cover has seen more tweaks than the gun models. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscript Bagger Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Is there a victory flag on the house? The guns could be moving to "secure" it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gallear Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 Got to apologize about the account after writing it up and understanding it better - the 88mm guns were clearly knocked out by Besa fire (one at 30 yards, another at some considerable distance of hundreds of yards), although an 88mm was destroyed with AP rounds so it could not be used again, as the British tanks withdrew . Yes, there was a flag on the house but the guns and infantry were moving away from it! It is interesting that another player believes that AT-guns are too easy to knock out. Was that with tanks that fired HE? [ January 15, 2004, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Originally posted by Mark Gallear: (Oh - what a big response - just Michael !) No the AT guns were moving in the open before been fired on - they had been given orders to hide whilst dug-in, indeed men given orders to hide in the house had run out into the open. It is Tunisia - so wide-open spaces - only rocks and scrub. Dunno for the guns, but if the house is crowded some have to leave... Just for the record: There is only one flag and it is firmly in GE hands at the farm house. The units were ordered to hide in the scenario editor, but the AI played the Axis forces (ie it was probably the "strategic AI" and not the TacAI that ordered them to move?) The guns always move or the guns moved in one incident? Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gallear Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 My tester has emailed me and two guns are still moving (I removed the cover they were apparently moving towards). He has not mentioned the infantry. His experience with knocking the guns out compared to the tank casualties is very historical! (However I changed one gun to a "field gun" but then historical accounts of weapon types can be faulty.) For the record how much infantry are you allowed in two-storey light building - I would have thought I was within limits from previous experience with CMBO and CMBB. There are other flags but some distance away and also protected - the uns did not appear to be moving them in their direction. I don't understand the diffrent definitions of AI you have given. Got a human player for the British side, germans are on default setup - my historical setup and AI is contolling them! Should be releasing it soon so you can also see how well the game and yourselves do against "history". Has a full breifing of what happened in the real battle . [ January 15, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Originally posted by Mark Gallear: (Oh - what a big response - just Michael !)And just exactly what do you mean by "just" Michael, hmm? [tapping toe irately] :mad: No the AT guns were moving in the open before been fired on - they had been given orders to hide whilst dug-in, indeed men given orders to hide in the house had run out into the open.Your army suffers from poor discipline, likely as a result of bad leadership. It may be time to resort to the cat. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gallear Posted January 16, 2004 Author Share Posted January 16, 2004 I have put up "Steamroller Farm" as a test scenario at the bottom of Mod Corner. (I am not going to send it to the Scenario Depot until its fully tested.) I am selling it as test yourself (and the game) against history. As the briefs include an account of the battle from the British tankers point of view. I intend it to be played single-player as the British with the set-ups on Scenario default. The map is historical from a sketch map made by one of the combatants, the forces are historical, and in the positions the British encountered them. I have honestly done my best to fix it so the events unfold historically. Still got some silly things going on - just maybe I have found a few more bugs :eek: in CMAK. Sorry, for referring to he with the very low number as "just Michael." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Did you mention what type guns they were? A Churchill (depending on the mark) can be a pretty tough beast. If a light gun (37mm) is stuck in the open and sees itself having 'zero' chance of getting a penetration it would probably see no option but to find some cover. But if its a decent caliber gun (50mm or bigger) with a chance of putting up a fight this is a very odd reaction. I have noticed that defending troops (during attacks and assaults) tend to move about more in CMAK than in CMBB. If this is happening with guns as well as troops it would not be good. By the way, I went to your mod site and spotted the intriguing 'Steamroller Farm' Churchill scenario. Unfortunately when I went to download a Yahoo message said it couldn't be found. [ January 16, 2004, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gallear Posted January 16, 2004 Author Share Posted January 16, 2004 Yes, they are Churchills but if it is tank fear, I still think it is a bug. I think a light flak and larger gun of the type you describe were originally doing it, shifted a few things around and the light flak was doing it. Despite take a section of infantry out of the house, some infantry - rather than two lots are still running out. (It would be much more sensible for them to remain hidden, as for knowing how thick the Churchill armour is - they wouldn't as I strongly suspect this was there first action after El Alaimein in North Africa and it would be a totally unkown type to all but the most clued up intelligence officer. The Germans had examined the ones at Deippe and knew what could pentrate them and where!) I had one Flak gun around the back of the farm pointed backwards to the enemy, he AI does not seem to like this - although it is an historical location for this gun. When I first noticed it they had done this before the Churchills were in sight of them! Have a go yourself, if it will do it for you, it will happen before turn 3. My playtester is doing well against the Germans, after my first experience I toned the German defenders down, may put them back up a bit. He seems to be doing as well as the British did historically if not possibly better! (That is what I have gone for in this scenario rather than for an equal chance for both sides!) Like some feed back on what other people experience is with it ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 It took a couple attempts (maybe incompetence on my part ) but I finally got "Steamroller Farm" downloaded. I look forward to playing it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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