Kingfish Posted September 1, 2007 Share Posted September 1, 2007 Reynolds describes a German armored counterattack hitting the 2nd Grenadier Guards as they advanced on Cagny. This comprised remnants from both the 22nd Pz Regiment and 503rd Schwere Pz Abt. Does anyone know what tank types (TigerI, Tiger II or both) from the 503rd participated in this action? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted September 1, 2007 Share Posted September 1, 2007 They were almost certainly all Tiger I, based on losses. The evidence is as follows. The Tiger IIs were all in 1 Company when the 503rd moved to Normandy. 2 and 3 companies had Tiger Is. Almost all the causalties suffered in July were to 3 company, which lost half the whole battalion's KIA for the whole month, on July 18 alone (that is the first day of Goodwood, of course). 3 company losses were high enough that on July 20 (the end of Goodwood), they turned over their remaining Tiger Is to 2 company, and the personnel went to the rear to be refitted with Tiger IIs (which did not arrive in time for the rest of the battle). Since virtually all the losses were to 3 company and happened right in the Goodwood period, it stands to reason the unit involved in the counterattack was 3 company. Which had only Tiger Is. I hope this helps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Enigma Posted September 1, 2007 Share Posted September 1, 2007 A point of intrest, i find it rather funny how when growing up before seriously becoming intrested in researching and learning as much as possible that the Tiger in common perception was this unbeatable tank (sorta like a modern one vs the old bunch the iraqis had type of thing). But when you look in to it all you see the losses they took, for example the unit above or units like the 101st iirc which lost all its Tigers in the Normandy battle ... and how they were taken out i find to be rather intresting, 6 pounders, 75mm guns etc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted September 1, 2007 Share Posted September 1, 2007 In comparison: it's more like an M60 vs T55 then say an M1 vs T72. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 Originally posted by Kingfish: Reynolds describes a German armored counterattack hitting the 2nd Grenadier Guards as they advanced on Cagny. This comprised remnants from both the 22nd Pz Regiment and 503rd Schwere Pz Abt. Does anyone know what tank types (TigerI, Tiger II or both) from the 503rd participated in this action? Hi! concerning Goodwood and the german counterattack in question I suggest the following reading: Ian Danglish "Operation Goodwood" Battleground Europe series ISBN 1-84415-030-5 Christopher Dunphie "The pendulum of battle" Pen and Sword ISBN 1-84415-010-0 George Bernage+J.P.Benamou "Goodwood - Bombardement geant brise-panzers" Editions Heimdal ISBN 2-84048-028-X Alfred Rubbel "The Combat History of schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503" J.J Fedorowicz Publishing ISBN 0-921991-55-X J.P. Perrigault "21. Panzer Division" Editions Heimdal ISBN 2-84048-157-X As for the counterattack of 18th July 1944, the following tanks of 503 were involved: A mixture of Tiger II and Tiger Is at the disposal of Leutnant von Rosen south of Manneville: TigerIIs were from 1st Coy (Porsche variant) Tiger Is were from 2nd and 3rd Coys 3rd Coy was hit hard by the carpet bombing and according to Rubbel had only 6 tanks available at 10:00 hours. At the end of the day 3rd Coy had 14 dead tanks to mourn, most of them due to the bombing. 1st Coy was able to get a portion of its Kingtigers into position by noon and attacked between 12:00 and 14:00 along the Troarn-Caen road towards Demouville with PzIVs from I./PzRgt.22. They suffered the folowing losses on the 18th: Tigers 100,101,122 and the "Gorman Tiger" 112, additionally 8 PzIVs from PzRgt 22. 2nd Coy, which attacked northwest of Troarn along with 16th LwFeldDiv and 346 ID is unclear according to the sources cited. Hope this helps cheers Helge [ September 03, 2007, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: The DesertFox ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 Excellent, DF, thanks for the correction. I guess it shows what relying on losses can lead to - 3 company did lose the most but sounds like that was before the actual attack. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted September 2, 2007 Author Share Posted September 2, 2007 Excellent indeed, thanks to all. One follow up question - Would the KTs in 1 company be of the early Porsche variant, or Henschel, or a mix? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 Achtung Panzer - "Only two companies of schwere Panzer Abteilung 503 commanded by Hauptmann Fromme, equipped with Tiger II tanks (with Porsche turrets), were committed to the fighting in Normandy..." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 Originally posted by Kingfish: Excellent indeed, thanks to all. One follow up question - Would the KTs in 1 company be of the early Porsche variant, or Henschel, or a mix? Hi! All tanks from 1st Coy were of the Porsche variant (IIRC 12 pieces). Also there is a photo available showing the No.300 tank (Hptm.Scherff) being Henschel turret. However I´m not 100% sure if this pic has been taken in Normandy in July or after the refit of 3rd Coy during the retreat in August. However this No.300 tank was lost near Oinville (east of the Seine) the 28 august 1944. I try to find this out once I´m back home. cheers Helge P.S.: You might find this page helpfull: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=25879&sid=30d753f7c935c77b09f1bb0f308083ee P.P.S.: Found the No.300 data. During refitting in Mailly-le-Camp 3rd Coy got 12 "Porsche" and 2 "Henschel" pieces. These two were No.300 (Hptm. Scherf) and 301 (Fw. Neeb). So in conclusion for me there is zero evidence that a single "Henschel" piece of 503 participated in any hostilities in France before 20th August 44. [ September 03, 2007, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: The DesertFox ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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