Mad Russian Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 I would like to know EXACTLY where the Strumgeschutz Brigade 394 was on 6 August 1944. Wherever they were a single section killed 26 Shermans in an hour. My source, Sturmgeschutze vor! says that they were somewhere on the Vire. I would appreciate ANY information on this unit on that day. Thanks ahead of time. Panther Commander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridericus Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 do you know the division/corps, to which this brigade was assaigned? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 More importantly, do you know which Allied unit lost the 26 tanks? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridericus Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Andreas: More importantly, do you know which Allied unit lost the 26 tanks? much more important: which not? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 No, I don't know which division or corps they were attached to, and no, I don't know the US tank battalion that lost the Shermans. That's why I came here. To find out the answer to those two questions. "Sturmgeschutze vor!" page 167, says that the Brigade was assigned to 7th Army but under the command of SS Obergruppenfuhrer Hausser. That should mean 1st SS Panzer Corps, but I find no mention of the Brigade, in any of the literature that I have on it. So I am at a loss. The 3rd Battery was led by the Brigade Commander Hauptmann Freiherr von Jena. He personally destroyed six of the Shermans before being wounded himself earning him the German Cross in Gold. Has the makings of a good fight if I can get some more information about it. Panther Commander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Stug.Abt 394 : Formée en 03/44 à Deutsch Eylau - Ardennes - Alsace Lorraine 12/44 - 01/45 ? http://perso.wanadoo.fr/did.panzer/Unite_sturmgeschutz.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John N Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Take a look here. http://sturmvogel.tripod.com/stug.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Given the time and location mentioned I would start looking for info on Operation Bluecoat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Panther Commander: No, I don't know which division or corps they were attached to, and no, I don't know the US tank battalion that lost the Shermans. That's why I came here. To find out the answer to those two questions.Well, you did not say a lot about what you had, so it could have been that you just did not type in the info. Sorry for trying to help. Anyway, it was almost certainly not a US battalion but a UK regiment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claus B Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Panther Commander: I would like to know EXACTLY where the Strumgeschutz Brigade 394 was on 6 August 1944. Wherever they were a single section killed 26 Shermans in an hour. My source, Sturmgeschutze vor! says that they were somewhere on the Vire. I would appreciate ANY information on this unit on that day. Thanks ahead of time. Panther Commander Assuming that the brigade was around the village of Vire on August 6th 1944, it would've been in a somewhat complicated area as it was not far from the joint between US 12th Army Group and UK 21st Army Group, but I think the most likely opposition would've been from US V Corps - perhaps Blumenson: "Breakout and pursuit" in the US Army Green Book series would be a good place to start, in order to establish which units were actually in the general area at the time. Claus B 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Mr. Tittles: Stug.Abt 394 : Formée en 03/44 à Deutsch Eylau - Ardennes - Alsace Lorraine 12/44 - 01/45 ? http://perso.wanadoo.fr/did.panzer/Unite_sturmgeschutz.html Sorry I don't do French. But that site only showed very limited dates of deployment if I understood at all what I was looking at. Panther Commander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Turbo: Take a look here. http://sturmvogel.tripod.com/stug.html Yes this site shows that they entered combat around Vire on 4 August. So far stiil no accompanying units or any identification of the American forces. Not to mention no maps. Panther Commander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Well, this will be no help at all, not sure where things stood in August, but in July, this is where the corps were deployed and where the Vire was... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Andreas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panther Commander: No, I don't know which division or corps they were attached to, and no, I don't know the US tank battalion that lost the Shermans. That's why I came here. To find out the answer to those two questions.Well, you did not say a lot about what you had, so it could have been that you just did not type in the info. Sorry for trying to help. Anyway, it was almost certainly not a US battalion but a UK regiment. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I have heard people comment that Kurowski is not that reliable as a source. I believe he is a former PK Man. 'Vielschreiber' was the term used. The title of the book you mention sounds like he continued to use the terminology that he learned as a PK journo. I believe Michael's map may not be of much help, because by early August the sectors may have shifted considerably. I am quite sure that the town of Vire itself was in the sector of the British 21st Army Group. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Panther Commander: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Turbo: Take a look here. http://sturmvogel.tripod.com/stug.html Yes this site shows that they entered combat around Vire on 4 August. So far stiil no accompanying units or any identification of the American forces. Not to mention no maps. Panther Commander </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 According to this website the 36th Infantry Division supported by tanks from the 737th Tank Battalion on 31 July. The 2nd ID was on the 36th ID left and the 29th ID was on their right. Here is the website. http://www.coulthart.com/134/35chapter_4.htm Panther Commander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 12th Army Group maps Scrolling over to August 6th and zooming in I see the Brit 11th and Guards Armored located to the NE of Vire, US 2nd inf to the north, and US 28th and 29th inf to the NW. The US 2nd Armd is also there behind the latter two Inf divs, but not sure if it is in a support role or being held as an exploitation force. The Germans include 352nd and 363rd Inf, what looks like 3rd FJ and possibly some elements of 9th SS Panzer. 10th SS Panzer looks to be held in reserve. I also see the 2nd and 116th Panzer to the SW, but IIRC they were moving west in preparation for the Mortain counterattack. That should get you started Edit: Nevermind, I should have read your intital post more carefully. I thought you were talking about a battle near the town of Vire, when you really meant somewhere near the Vire river. My goof. [ February 25, 2004, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Kingfish ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Andreas: I have heard people comment that Kurowski is not that reliable as a source. I believe he is a former PK Man. 'Vielschreiber' was the term used. But Andreas, PK Men got the German Cross in Gold, and stuff. How could that make him unreliable? :confused: :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Kingfish: 12th Army Group maps Scrolling over to August 6th and zooming in I see the Brit 11th and Guards Armored located to the NE of Vire, US 2nd inf to the north, and US 28th and 29th inf to the NW. The US 2nd Armd is also there behind the latter two Inf divs, but not sure if it is in a support role or being held as an exploitation force. The Germans include 352nd and 363rd Inf, what looks like 3rd FJ and possibly some elements of 9th SS Panzer. 10th SS Panzer looks to be held in reserve. I also see the 2nd and 116th Panzer to the SW, but IIRC they were moving west in preparation for the Mortain counterattack. That should get you started Edit: Nevermind, I should have read your intital post more carefully. I thought you were talking about a battle near the town of Vire, when you really meant somewhere near the Vire river. My goof. It's my understanding that this battle was near the town of Vire. That is what all of the information on Stug Bde 394 shows. That the battle was near the town. Panther Commander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 I found a detailed map of the area for the 6th of August. You can see it at this web site. Look at map Falaise Pocket in the lower left hand corner. This shows the 2nd Armored and the British 11th Amrored Divisions side by side around Vire. It is beginning to look like the American unit is the 2nd Armored Division. I'll see what I can find out about them. Here is the website: http://www.canadahistory.com/sections/conflict/confwwiijuno.htm Panther Commander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Andreas: I have heard people comment that Kurowski is not that reliable as a source. I believe he is a former PK Man. 'Vielschreiber' was the term used. The title of the book you mention sounds like he continued to use the terminology that he learned as a PK journo. I believe Michael's map may not be of much help, because by early August the sectors may have shifted considerably. I am quite sure that the town of Vire itself was in the sector of the British 21st Army Group. Check out this website for the very detailed operational maps. They show a very good idea of the location of Allied units and a pretty good location for German ones. Since he touts the units as Americans twice that leads me to believe that the unit was more than likely 2nd Armored. Also if they took 26 tanks casualties in an hour they would almost have to be an Armored Division. That would wipe a single tank battalion out. Web Site http://www.canadahistory.com/sections/conflict/confwwiijuno.htm Panther Commander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 The entry for the 29th ID in Shelby Stanton's "Order of Battle U.S. Army WWII" states that they took the contested town of Vire on 7 August. At the time they are shown to have the 747th Tank Battalion assigned to them. Panther Commander 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Panther Commander: Also if they took 26 tanks casualties in an hour they would almost have to be an Armored Division. That would wipe a single tank battalion out. Never assume. The British Columbia regiment - in effect, a single tank battalion - was wiped out in a single morning at Point 195, after having laagered on the wrong hill the previous night. It certainly wasn't inconceivable for entire battalions to be destroyed in Normandy in a single day, infantry or armoured. The Black Watch of Canada were virtually exterminated at Verrieres Ridge in a single afternoon; 325 men of the rifle companies yielded just 15 survivors after their attack. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panther Commander: Also if they took 26 tanks casualties in an hour they would almost have to be an Armored Division. That would wipe a single tank battalion out. Never assume. The British Columbia regiment - in effect, a single tank battalion - was wiped out in a single morning at Point 195, after having laagered on the wrong hill the previous night. It certainly wasn't inconceivable for entire battalions to be destroyed in Normandy in a single day, infantry or armoured. The Black Watch of Canada were virtually exterminated at Verrieres Ridge in a single afternoon; 325 men of the rifle companies yielded just 15 survivors after their attack. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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