Stalingrad force mixes

[Tux]

Hi all. A friend and I are busy constructing a Stalingrad scenario to PBEM between ourselves, and are trying to make the forces as historically accurate as possible. What would the typical armoured support for a ~batallion-sized German assault have been?

We're currently thinking of a Soviet SMG batallion (with a green rifle company arriving from the Volga as reinforcements as the game progresses) + additional FTs, THs, MGs, ATRs, snipers, FOs and a few 45mm/ 76mm guns, with one or two dug in T-34s at strongpoints. Against these the Germans would assault with approximately one rifle battalion + a veteran Engineer company + additional FTs, MGs, etc and armoured support. A couple of heavy rocket fire plans at the beginning of the game would simulate a heavy air raid to 'soften up' the defences.

We plan to give more-or-less all infantry units maximum ammunition loads, especially grenades and other hand-helds.

Does that sound about right/ balanced?

[Snowbart]

I suppose the big question is which part of the battle are you trying to simulate? Sounds like the early German assaults in August?

[Kingfish]

IMO, it would be more accurate to represent the Russian infantry forces as a hodge-podge of different formations, rather than having it from one unified command. A Guards platoon here, a SMG squad there, etc. Most would be well below full strength, with ammo loads also a mixed bag.

[Tux]

Yeah, sorry. We're going for one of the earlier attempts by the Germans to reach the Volga and take some of the nearby landmarks. We've got to the testing stage now though so I s'pose we'll find out for ourselves whether it's balanced or not!

[EDIT] Thanks Kingfish, I think we'll do that actually. It sounds like it might make the Soviet defence a bit more desperate. At the moment their defensive line is pretty damned solid!

[ August 03, 2007, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: Tux ]

[JasonC]

German armor in this period - most would be Panzer III Js with 50L60 (including some tungsten, it didn't get super scarce until the next year), and then a couple of Panzer IV F1s with HEAT and for HE support.

But they also just used 150mm howitzers firing direct to blast their way into the city. Take sIGs or Grille - Bison vehicles. Take 2.

They used lots of 150s indirect as well, obviously. The reason the Russians were fighting using hidden holdouts and re-infiltation tactics, is that standing in front of the German artillery, in known positions, was suicide.

Also, the previous poster is right that you would not see uniform Russian SMGs. A single "storm" company of them, sure (for an attack mission, or in reserve initially with a counterattack planned). But the bulk would be standard 1942 pattern infantry types.

[Tux]

Excellent, thanks Jason.

We've been modifying the maps and units. We're thinking now the Germans will get a Jaeger batallion with 1 company in reserve, perhaps an engineer company on map, + the armour and artillery support suggested above.

For the Russians we're using about a batallion's worth of men, but a fair few of them will be HQ-less squads/ half squads. The odd HQ-less SMG squad will represent shock troops, and TH teams will represent smaller ambush teams of men with SMGs. We think the idea will be for the Russians to have a porous front line, rather than a solid one, let infantry pass and then murder them from close range before HE support can be brought to bear. Does that sound about right?

Also, we're both aware that the Russians would have had heavy artillery support, but that it might have taken quite a while to arrange. What sort of calibre/s would be most realistic?

Thanks for the help guys, this is much appreciated by people who know a few of the basics but little about the detailed unit composition.

[Brent Pollock]

Nothing to do directly with force mix, but I urge you to allow Sewer Movement for the Russians, but not for the Germans. I would also give the Russians a slight fanatacism edge.

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Tux:

For the Russians we're using about a batallion's worth of men, but a fair few of them will be HQ-less squads/ half squads. The odd HQ-less SMG squad will represent shock troops, and TH teams will represent smaller ambush teams of men with SMGs.

You're not able to to get HQ-less squads or platoons, at least from the purchase screen. The best alternative is to buy a platoon and move the squad far outside of HQ range -or- buy an extra couple of TH teams, which are independent formations anyways.

We think the idea will be for the Russians to have a porous front line, rather than a solid one, let infantry pass and then murder them from close range before HE support can be brought to bear. Does that sound about right?

Will your opponent be so accomodating? You know that old adage about military plans...

Also, we're both aware that the Russians would have had heavy artillery support, but that it might have taken quite a while to arrange. What sort of calibre/s would be most realistic?

The Russians assembled a fairly impressive arty park on the eastern side of the Volga, but I think this didn't happen until later in the campaign. Jason can confirm. My guess would be a mix of mortars, 76mm & 122mm.

[JasonC]

The Russians did have some arty on the west bank, early on, but it mostly did not last. Much harder to supply over there. There was a 132mm rocket battalion that operated over there, though. (Not much for the whole city, to be sure). The most common serious arty on the west bank would be 120mm mortar.

They built a large park of guns on the east bank. They were range limited, but as the fight moved close to the river they were well within range. 76mm guns showed up first. The lighter mortars and rockets did not have the best range from the far bank, but could hit the river line and factory areas.

Later on they brought in large numbers of 122mm howitzers, and smaller numbers of 122mm guns (with good range for counterbattery) and 152mm gun-howitzers. There was one battalion of 203mm, but it wasn't there yet in August.

I think giving the Russians some on map 82mm mortars, a single 120mm and a couple of 76mm FOs, would be fair and realistic. No TRPs. That means they have to register them 5 minutes ahead and there is some spotting round warning.

As for the Russian force structure, you have the right idea, but here is how I'd do it in detail.

Start with a green Russian 1942 style infantry battalion. Drop 2 full platoons, one each from the 2nd and 3rd companies. Drop 2 squads randomly from 2 of the remaining platoons, and 1 from another 2. Then reposition 1 squad from another 2 somewhere far from their HQ, in a forward set up zone, split into half squads and padlocked set up.

Put the one full platoon in a rear, reserve location and upgrade it to regulars. Now go through and randomly upgrade a few HQs and squads to regular, maybe 1/4 all told.

Reduce the MMGs and such by 1/3, and replace the 82mm mortar FO with 4 on-map 82mm mortars. Upgrade 1/4 of the remaining MMGs and 1/3 of the ATRs to regular quality.

Add 6 tank hunters, all regular quality, and 3 snipers, all veterans. Also a regular pioneer company (6 squads), split into 3 sections of an HQ and 2 squads each. Add 1 regular FT to each of those sections. (Those are better infantry AT than the tank hunters, since this is still the molotov era). FOs as already mentioned.

For guns, give them a couple of 45mm and trenches, 1 76mm ZIS-3 also with a trench. 1 entrenched - immobile T-34. A couple of MG log bunkers. A few roadblocks and a dozen wire entanglements.

Now schedule a full regular quality SMG company as a reinforcement. Make the company HQ veteran and be sure it has good bonuses, including at least +1 in each of command, combat and morale. Not instantly, more like half way through the battle.

You can also schedule (earlier than the SMGs) a pair of regular T-70 light tanks, and late, a single regular T-34. (Yeah, they were really using the piecemeal at this point).

The kicker is, regular or better troops 25% fanaticism. (I also agree that the Russians should be able to sewer move and the Germans should not).

For the Germans, your approach sounds fine.

[Broompatrol]

(scribbles furiously in notebook) :cool:

[Tux]

Originally posted by Broompatrol:

(scribbles furiously in notebook) :cool:

Lol, likewise. That's brilliant guys, thanks again. Yeah we've just discovered that the HQs are awkward to remove entirely, so sufficient separation will have to suffice for now.

We were going to allow sewer movement for both sides, but it seems that this is generally deemed unrealistic, so we've changed that. You've all confirmed what we thought about fanaticism.

I'm actually set to play the German side in this scenario, so I certainly hope my opponent does set up a solid frontline with lots of juicy targets! My opponent and I are playing a sort of PBEM war at the moment, using assorted ready-made scenarios and some QBs. This is the second one we're building for ourselves, after an adaptation of Wittman in the East I did based on Jason's recommendations in another thread. You certainly seem to enjoy 'constructing' accurate opposing forces, Jason! We've decided that, if we used our own tactics (with the benefit of hindsight) and accurate opposing forces, then the Germans are due a spanking in most battles by default. We're therefore trying to each stick to our respective side's real world tactics during each battle.

Lol, from the German point of view I'm not liking the sound of that SMG reinforcement! I think I may be in a bit of a hurry when we play the first few minutes of this one...

Thanks again folks, much appreciated. I'll try and remember to let you all know how this one turns out.

[jtcm]

Whoo hoo ! Rock and roll.

We want

a. AARs from both side

b. the scenario posted somewhere for downloading !

[Aco4bn187inf]

How many trenches should realistically be included?

Occasionally I see an aerial photo or film of positions around Stalingrad, and I am struck by the extensive trench lines such as I have not often seen in CMBB scenarios. I expect that in the city itself there would also be many many fortified positions, best simulated by trenches, for lack of any alternative in the game. (Alas, bunkers can't be taken and retaken in CM.)

Also, since heavy buildings are arguably too easy to bring down in the game, and provide less cover when rubbled, more trenches might help simulate tough positions like Pavlov's house, etc.

[JasonC]

Realistically there were a lot of trenches and also a lot of roadblocks. The party had pretty much the entire civilian population digging the first and making barricade versions of the second for a couple of weeks, before large scale air attacks led to the evacuation of most of the city. However, most of these were in lines at the city outskirts and much of the fighting rapidly moved within them. Barricades at least were a common feature of the later fighting, as was rubble out in the streets effectively blocking passage.

Getting that to work in CM is a different matter. In CM, trenches can't touch buildings, and rubble stays where the building was instead of spilling onto the street. Roadblocks can simulate rubble-filled streets. It is also fine to add wire. Mines don't really work (because CM does not let them touch building tiles).

I would only give as many free placement trenches as the Russians get towed guns, and a few more for MG positions (like, 2-4 more, max). If you want to simulate an anti-tank ditch like those prepared early, have the designer place them and padlock the set up - and it should be a continuous barrier in an unselected location, not tactically optimal adaptive placement that is just right for this battle. (Because it was dug ages ago, in ignorance, etc).

As for the danger from building collapse, defending from rubble is often preferable. Less likely to be predicted and to get clobbered by area fire preparations. You can also use a factory with interior sections, behind a string of "outbuildings" that block long direct LOS, if you want a particularly tough objective.

Buildings are better cover when they are used to completely block LOS by putting the whole building between yourself and the enemy, than just sitting inside one visible out the front windows. It isn't the cover percentage that matters, it is the option to completely break contact ("skulk").

[Richie]

Right on the outskirts of the city you want a couple of 'green' 76mm anit aircraft guns in trenches. These were actually 'manned' by women crews...

Don't go for heaps of wire but be liberal with the mines.

[Tux]

More adaptations, eh? Lol, ok thanks, we'll see if we can implement them. I think my opponent may have created this game as a short operation rather than a single scenario (his computer can't handle very large battles), but I might try and get it all into one so it can be posted online.

AARs will be a new challenge, so I guess I could have a go.