See the new Stalingrad documentary?

[Holman]

The NY Times today reviews a new German-produced documentary about Stalingrad and finds it very impressive. It's showing at a film festival in NYC right now. Presumably it has also had a release in Germany, but the article didn't say.

The film includes interviews with survivors (civilians and soldiers alike), and the review mentions that some Germans commented on the basically decent treatment they received from their Russian captors. That's a sentiment I wouldn't have expected after the fierce fighting on the campaign.

Has anyone here see the film?

[Tripps]

Do you have the name of this movie?

[Holman]

It's in three parts, but I believe that all three together are just called "Stalingrad."

Here's the information about the film from the NY Times review:

Part 1: The Attack": written and directed by

Jörg Müllner and Sebastian Dehnhardt; edited by Marc

Nordbuch. "Part 2: The Kessel": written and directed by

Christian Deick and Mr. Dehnhardt; edited by Wolfgang Daut.

"Part 3: The Doom": written and directed by Manfred

Oldenburg and Mr. Dehnhardt; edited by André Hammesfahr. In

German and Russian, with English subtitles; directors of

photography, Peer Horstmann, Wolfgang Wunderlich, Stefan

Schindler and Jurij Brodski; music by Enjott Schneider;

produced by Susanne Feikes. Running time: 156 minutes. This

film is not rated. Shown tonight at 7:30 P.M. at the Walter

Reade Theater at Lincoln Center as part of the 41st New

York Film Festival.

[Tero]

I think the documentary was aired here in Finland not so long ago. Most impressive and effective. Highly recommend.

[Belaja smert]

Originally posted by Tero:

I think the documentary was aired here in Finland not so long ago. Most impressive and effective. Highly recommend.

Yep, it was co-produced by finnish broadcasting company, YLE. I guess that's why it was shown here so soon after completion.

[Steiner14]

I saw it several weeks ago.

All in all, it is only one of the usual one-dimensional productions with almost zero hard facts and no rational explanations why things happened how they happened.

Although it's a way better documentary than the usual embarassing german propaganda-productions (i guess the Finns had a very good influence), it's still far away from being objective.

Still a lot to do for courageous and independent historicans.

[ October 17, 2003, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Steiner14 ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

I saw it several weeks ago.

All in all, it is only one of the usual one-dimensional productions with almost zero hard facts and no rational explanations why things happened how they happened.

Although it's a way better documentary than the usual embarassing german propaganda-productions (i guess the Finns had a very good influence), it's still far away from being objective.

Still a lot to do for courageous and independent historicans.

Given your track record for bizarre views on history, perhaps you could illustrate your opinion with some examples?

[Andreas]

It is extremely good. Probably the only chance many of us have to see and hear veterans of the 1942 summer campaign from both sides.

That female Russian medic with all her medals was who impressed me most, together with the German private who got out on one of the last flights because a wounded officer gave up his space for him.

Superb oral history. If only they had gotten some Romanians in there as well.

[Patrocles]

Originally posted by Martyr:

The film includes interviews with survivors (civilians and soldiers alike), and the review mentions that some Germans commented on the basically decent treatment they received from their Russian captors. That's a sentiment I wouldn't have expected after the fierce fighting on the campaign.

Has anyone here see the film?

thanks for the info! This documentary sounds worthy of viewing.

I, too, am surprised by the comment about the Germans who comment on the decent treatment they received as POWs. I thought I read somewhere that out of ~150,000 prisoners only a small fraction ~5000 survived the POW camps. Does anyone know anything about this?

[Steiner14]

Originally posted by Patrocles:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martyr:

The film includes interviews with survivors (civilians and soldiers alike), and the review mentions that some Germans commented on the basically decent treatment they received from their Russian captors. That's a sentiment I wouldn't have expected after the fierce fighting on the campaign.

Has anyone here see the film?

thanks for the info! This documentary sounds worthy of viewing.

I, too, am surprised by the comment about the Germans who comment on the decent treatment they received as POWs. I thought I read somewhere that out of ~150,000 prisoners only a small fraction ~5000 survived the POW camps. Does anyone know anything about this? </font>

[dizee]

few facts bout those figures.....

idd many german pow´s fell victime to instant acts of revenge after their capture. shot, beaten etc that was nothing realy special.

the two main reasons for this low number of returned prisioners where the already bad shape of the germans in the kessel when 6th army surrendered, and the general bad suppliesitiuation in whole of russia during those month. a average german pow wouldnt receive more food than the average soviet peasant.

[MRoadster]

Anyone know if this documentary has been, or will be, aired in the United States?

[Patrocles]

Originally posted by dizee:

few facts bout those figures.....

idd many german pow´s fell victime to instant acts of revenge after their capture. shot, beaten etc that was nothing realy special.

the two main reasons for this low number of returned prisioners where the already bad shape of the germans in the kessel when 6th army surrendered, and the general bad suppliesitiuation in whole of russia during those month. a average german pow wouldnt receive more food than the average soviet peasant.

That would explain why so few survived. Did the filmmakers cover this in the documentary?

[s3333cr333tz]

A large portion of those survivors died on their marches to Siberia. Many of the casualties were freezing to death, or regular soldiers indiscriminately firing into the German columns as they passed by their posts. Stalin has strictly forbidden inhumane treatment of the survivors if I remember correctly, but this was one of those few situations where things were let slide.

I believe the Italians and Romanians that marched off into captivity had it much worse on their marches than the Germans. Anyone who stumbled, fell down or fell behind was executed. I also believe they marched the entire way to whatever prison camp they were interned at.

Soviet peasents took their toll on the Germans as well, often stripping them of any and all warm clothing or impliments with which they could create a fire.

I believe, after several hundred miles of marching, Stalin discovered what was happening and ordered the immediate halt of the forced marches. His standing orders were then to have the Germans prisoners transported by train, or by vehicle. Those who got the trains I don't think were much better off than when they were forced marching. Food provided was limited at best, and men in the overpacked cars often fought to the death for any food provided. Details on these events are sketchy from what ive seen, because they were from the first hand experience of a survivor, who had no clue what was actually happening. He related that it seemed like the Soviets drove the trains around for a few days, slide open the doors threw in food and water and hauled out the dead.

Once in the labor camps, I don't know if inhumane treatment was the leading cause of death, or a combination of exhaustion and the lost will to live. They had extremely difficult labor, and worked I believe 16-18 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Needless to say, conditions as well as the Soviets took their toll on the Germans. It actually seems very likely that this fellow would have claimed the Soviets treated him well. As I understand it, the Soviets tried to turn any and every Soldier they could against the fascist nazi government, those that did embrace the communists, were treated much better than those that refused. It would probably be interesting to see the number of survivors that did denounce the Nazis and turn to communism in those dark days.

[White Phosphorus]

When you starve to death there is a certain point where your body stops accepting solid food. The captured German soldiers needed specialized care, which the USSR simply could not afford; hell they could barely afford normal food for the prisoners, which killed them pretty quickly anyways. Stalingrad was also the first major Soviet victory resulting in huge numbers of enemy prisoners, they didn't really know what they were doing.

[White Phosphorus]

s333cr333tz Is this the order you are reffering to?

An Order in Regards to Organization of POW Evacuation form the Frontline

# 001 January 2 1943

Current practices of transiting and supplying of POW at the front and in during the transit stage to rear area camps has a number of significant shortcomings:

1. POW are held for a long time in units of the Red Army. From the moment of capture to the moment of their arrival to transit points, POWs have to walk 200-300 kilometers, while receiving almost no food, and because of that they arrive in the state of extreme exhaustion and sickness.

2. Considerable number of POW, not having own winter clothing, despite my orders, is not supplied form the captured stock.

3. POW, walking form the place of capture to the transit points, often guarded by small groups of soldiers or not guarded at all, which forces them to settle among the local population.

4. Concentration points for the POWs, as well as receiving points of NKVD, that in accordance with orders issued by the Staff of the Rear Area of the Red Army and Main Directorate of food supplies of the Red Army, must be supplied by Fronts with foodstuffs, clothing, transport, -receive them in utterly insignificant numbers, that cannot provide for minimal necessities. Because of that POWs cannot be supplied in accordance with assigned norms.

5. VOSO of the Fronts, supplies transport for the POWs transit to the rear area camps, in accordance with “too little too late” principle; moreover railcars supplied are not fit for transportation of the people : without beds, stoves, toilets, fuel and other necessities.

6. Contrary to the Rules of POW handling, which were signed into action by SNK of USSR and order of Main Directorate of Military Medicine, wounded and sick POWs are not accepted to the frontline hospitals but rather made to travel with general POWs columns to the receiving points and NKVD camps. Because of that considerable number of POWs is getting exhausted and dies before they sent to the rear.

In order to decisively put an end to these malpractices in POW handling and to preserve them as a workforce I am ordering:

To the Front Commanders:

1. provide for immediate transit of POWs by the Army units to the concentration points. Speed this up –use all the means of transport available that are moving form the Front.

2.Make unit commanders responsible for supplying of POWs in transit, till their acceptance by NKVD receiving points, in accordance with norms envisaged by the Directive of SNK of USSR # 18747874s. Attach to the POW columns field kitchens from the captured equipment and transport, that is needed for foodstuffs.

3. In accordance with Rules of POW handling, confirmed by the SNK of USSR directive # 17987800s from July 1st 1941, provide in timely manner all kinds of medical services to the wounded and sick POWs.

Transit of sick , wounded, exhausted, frostbitten POWs with general columns with consequent delivery to the NKVD receiving points is categorically forbidden. This contingent is to be hospitalized with consequent evacuation to the rear area special hospitals; supply them in accordance to norms that are envisioned for sick POWs.

4. To provide enough troops for convoying of POWs from places of capture to the places of concentration.

5. In order to escape long walking stretches- make loading points for POWs as close as possible to the places of their concentration.

6. Unit commanders, when arraigning POWs transit, are to make a report of all POWs, amounts of foodstuffs supplied, transport and other means. The report is to be shown at receiving points. All personal documents of POWs are to be passed to NKVD personnel at NKVD receiving points

7. Daly marches are to be limited to 25-30km. After every 25-30 km -a stop is to be made to feed the POWs hot food, tea and to allow them to warm up and rest.

8. All personal belongings of the POWs shall remain in their possession. In cases when POWs lack winter clothing, footwear, and dishes, these items must be provided form captured stock or from dead enemy personnel.

9. To Fronts and Military Districts Commanders :

a) in accordance with order issued by the Main Directorate of Rear Areas of the Red Army # 24/103892 from 11.30.42 and order issued by Main Directorate of Food supplies of the Red Army #3911/sh (here was used Russian latter that is not available in Latin Alphabet -oleg) from 12.10.42, immediately verify food supply situation of NKVD receiving points and transit points; create necessary stocks so that uninterrupted feeding of POWs can be sustained.

Completely supply receiving points and NKVD transit camps with transport and other hardware. In case of arriving of the POWs in large numbers- additional means of transportation are to be dispatched immediately.

10.To the Chief of VOSO of the Red Army

a) supply necessary numbers of rail cars for immediate departure of POWs to the camps; rail cars are to be refitted with beds, stoves, toilets; provide uninterrupted supply of fuel is to be provided; use all the echelons that are available after delivering their cargo to the front.

provide for the fast transit of echelons – at the rate equal to that of military cargo

c) organize in VOSO directorate dispatcher control over POWs echelons.

d) norms for POWs per rail car: for 2 axel cars – 44 to 50 men. 4 axel cars – 80-90 men. No more than 1500 POWs per echelon.

e) provide for uninterrupted hot food supply to the POWs and resupply of on- board stocks on every possible occasion.

f) provide for uninterrupted supply of drinking water – 30 liters fro every 2-axel rail car, 50 liters for every 4 axel.

11. to the Chief of main Medical Directorate of the Red Army:

a) provide for hospitalization of all wounded, sick, frostbitten, and extremely exhausted POWs in medical establishments of the Red Army at the frontline and in the rear.

organize their immediate evacuation to the rear special hospitals

c) for medical service of POW in transit provide needed medical personnel with sufficient medical supplies on hand, also utilized for this purposes captured German medical personnel.

d) at evacuation points organize inspections in order to determined health conditions of POWs in transit and provide medical help if needed. Whose POWs who cannot continue with the transit because of their health are immediately to be taken off the trains and hospitalized in the nearest hospitals, with consequent transit to the rear area special hospitals as soon as their health permits.

e) conduct sanitizization of POWs with disinfection of their personal belongings along the route.

f) conduct antiepidemic works among POWs (till their acceptance by NKVD camps)

12. Forbid transit of POWs in the railcars that are not suited for transit of personnel, without necessary supplies, and of the POWs that are not dressed in accordance with season demands.

Deputy to the Peoples Commissar of Defense colonel-general of Rear Area Service A. Hrulev .

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

And even such a primitve manipulation of the TV-consumer, is still not primitive enough, to make i.e. Andreas prevent from thinking, it were a very good DOCUMENTARY...

Yawn. I did say it is superb oral history. That is not the same as a superb documentary. If your English is not up to understanding the difference, there are three options:

a) improve it

stick to German message forums

c) stop commenting on things you don't understand

Others have pointed out the main reasons why so few survived.

[Steiner14]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Others have pointed out the main reasons why so few survived.

Yes. But not this 'very good' documentary with it's 'good treatment' of german POW.

I'm wondering how you are assessing TV-productions. How well they entertain you and how exciting the stories are the narrators tell you?

[ October 18, 2003, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: Steiner14 ]

[Andreas]

How much they add to my knowledge. You should try using that as a yardstick. Since I already knew the reasons, I did not need the programme to tell me about them.