Chir river scenario: suggestions ?

[jtcm]

Reading the impressive piece on German defensive theory

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Wray/wray.asp

--I was wondering what would make a good CMBB, say reinforced Co or depleted Battn size, scenario for action on the Chir river in December 1942-- German alarm units hold the line in preparation for and during Manstein's relief effort. THere is one scenario in the Stalingrad Pack, involving, I suppose, Balck's 11th Panzer, but it's huge.

[Ron]

Very interesting and enjoyable read, thanks for the link!

[JasonC]

Elements of 336 infantry division, all regulars, start on map -

Use Infantry 42 style, a company force with MG platoon, but from a "stripped" battalion to provide extra HQs. That is, start with a battalion, remove 2 companies, 2 MG platoons. Remove the 81mm FO as well (they will be on map). Thus

Battalion HQ

2 company HQ

4 platoon HQ

1 section HQ

12 squads

6 HMG teams

Then add the following heavy weapons -

1 75mm infantry gun

2 81mm mortars

2 37mm PAK

2 20mm FLAK

1 105mm FO (phone)

And the following fortifications -

1 TRP

8 Trenches

15 Wire

For reinforcements, elements of the 11th Panzer Division, all veteran, arrive sometime after turn 10 on the rear edge (say 30% arrival chance per turn), along a road, infantry riding the tanks -

4 Pz IV G (early) (platoon)

1 Platoon HQ

3 Panzer Rifle Squads, Pz 42B style

1 Sharpshooter

The kicker is this modest force should have a front 2640m wide, on a map 2000m deep.

The attacking Russian force consists of green infantry and regular tanks, in two elements. The forward echelon starts along one edge, in 2-3 set up zones, a broad front. The second echelon arrives sometime after turn 15, say 20% chance per turn, perhaps divided into sub elements with individual arrival locations and rolls. The overall force is -

1 green Rifle Battalion 42D type

10 T-70s

10 T-34s

The first echelon, on map forces are 2/3rds of the infantry with their sole 82mm FO and the battalion HQ, 5 of the T-70s, and 6 of the T-34s (one and two platoons respectively). The second echelon is the remaining third of the infantry, the other T-70 platoon, the last T-34 platoon, and a single independent T-34 (the company commander's tank).

The on map Russians can be started in 3 set up zones, each with one of the three tank platoons, 2 infantry platoons, a company HQ (the battalion HQ can take the center one), with a weapons section of 2 MMG, 2 50mm, and 2 ATRs for each group.

The point is to force them to spread out across the frontage, each with a 880m set up zone. They might still bunch up at one of the boundaries, that is up to them. But they should not have complete freedom to deploy.

The Russian reinforcements should be split into groups -

4 T-34s are one group

5 T-70s are another

2 infantry platoons are another

1 infantry platoon and the weapons platoons are the last.

Each should have its own entry point and roll its 20% entry independently, so they arrive piecemeal.

Game length should be 45 turns or so.

There should be ground snow, cold, slight elevation changes (*not* "flat"). Light damage to provide shellholes. The area type should be rural and vegetation should be "open".

If you want to spend more time on the terrain, make one low area near the Russian side of the map, and many smaller gullies leading away from it toward the German side of the map. These should be 2-4 elevation levels lower than the surrounding terrain. Some light vegetation only in the low areas - a few trees, some brush. A very modest number of small wood buildings. The rest should be steppe terrain under light snow.

Play balance - if the Russians seem too strong, upgrade the Pz IVs to straight G models, not early G models. (That gives 80mm front hulls and makes them much less vulnerable to the T-34s). If you want still more, downgrade Russian tank crew quality to green. If you still can't get it to work for the Germans, double their fortifications (2 TRPs, 16 trenches, 30 wire). You can also try boosting the initial, on map German force initial ammo supplies to 150% of normal.

If you find the Russians need help (I can't imagine it, but with the AI anything is possible I suppose), you can trade the 9 tube 82mm for a 6 tube version and add 3 on map 82mm mortars. Then try upgrading a third of the infantry to regulars.

You should find the T-34s are tough but the rest of the Russians aren't, particularly. If you let their mass of infantry get too close to the infantry defenders, however, you will take losses and will find them hard to afford. Ammo discipline will also be hard - you will not be able to fire at everything for 45 minutes straight.

You can't really cut this down to a third of the size and still see the effect. The point will be that the Russians can't succeed everywhere, and stuff can shift away from the places they've already been stopped (using the gullies as "roads", off the visible skyline). The T-34s can get through probably. But a few of them can't hold down or beat all the defenders in such a large area (unlike what they might manage on a small map). The Pz IVs on the other hand should try to stay together, and deal with the Russian tank platoons in sequence, if possible.

[ March 09, 2004, 02:14 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Joachim]

In general, I like JasonC's idea.

What I would change:

"all regular" etc.: Add some variety like a QB would.

"1 TRP" Real Arty TRPs work for several hundred meters - especially on flat open terrain. I would add more to compensate for CMs short range TRP. If I had one TRP already zeroed in and 2 days left, I'd make pretty sure I knew where all exits from the gullies are in relation to the TRP.

Add some brush/scattered trees along the village.

Give the Germans a points bonus to correct the points for "dead" fortifications bug.

Edit the Ammo for the 37mm PaK to have at least 1-2 HC rounds each. Give them 1-2 TRPs each for first shot hits with the HC rounds. Or attach them to bonus HQs (stealth +1 combat +1 morale +2). The crews know that they are the prime AT weapons and responsible for their comrades, so they should have high morale.

HC for the IG should be standard anyway.

Consider giving additional small arms ammo to the Germans. Fire discipline will still be an issue.

MGs, casualties and Ammo:

You can simulate two things re MG ammo when ammo level is above 100%:

a) Only prepared positions for MGs have lots of ammo. A moving MG with casualties loses ammo.

MGs are primary weapons. If possible, a commander will make sure that they are completely manned. If necessary, ammo bearers are shifted from other squads.

I would strongly suggest you give them full 6 men per team and 157 points of ammo.

The reinforcing PzGrens should have additional ammo, too.

Add 2-3 tank hunter teams. They act as local reserves for counterattacks and to attack tanks that break thru.

Use 2-3 additional LMGs as outposts on the flanks.

Maybe split one or two squads into 2 LMGs and several tank hunter teams.

Allow the German player to set up in the gullies the Soviet player will use for his apporach. Just to allow for some nasty ambush.

Don't use totally flat terrain. Some slight ondulations should be ok.

Use the slight slope (?) setting in the parameters (1.25m per elevation level)

Consider making parts of the gullies' slopes impassable to vehicles (as slopes, rough or wet ground. The latter simulating slippery snow on the slopes).

Consider having wet ground in the gullies to simulate snow drifts.

Consider wet ground scattered all across the map to simulate snow drifts.

Gruß

Joachim

[Thin Red Line]

There is one scenario in the Stalingrad Pack, involving, I suppose, Balck's 11th Panzer, but it's huge.

On a smaller scale there is also Sowchos 79 about this episode (11th Panzer action only though).

[Joachim]

Ooops... I almost forgot...

The AI sometimes has the nasty habit of first setting up, then assembling its forces and then moving to the nearest flag (from its board edge or setup zone). Forcing the AI to deploy in 3 setup zones might ruin the party, as the AI will slowly hunt with the tanks while the grunts run thru the snow and get tired. When they finally move out, it will be in one infantry bunch and up to three armor packs. Given the low number of tanks, I'd guess it will be a single pack.

And the human player will (almost always) predict the direction of the attack.

To prevent this, you might try the following:

a) use only a single bunch of flags.

use dynamic flags (the AI does not choose on its own, but if the human player plays it blind, the uncertainty will still be there)

c) make sure many flags are the same distance from the Soviet board edge

d) have impassable terrain between setup zones for the AI version, forcing the AI to have several armor packs.

e) Allow the AI more turns than a human

f) give the AI some targets he can see... then he moves out towards the target. But any decent human player will hide... maybe use a Soviet patrol (HQ + 1-2 halfsquads) initially in the rear of the Stützpunkt. The AI knows some targets but once the patrol is slaughtered, it looses the borg spotting advantage from them. This also adds some options for the human player in the first turns. He must know where the patrol is (at least approximately) to destroy it, however.

And you should set the objective of the attack: Is it to bypass the stongpoint or to destroy it.

If you want to bypass the strongpoint, then the map should be deeper than Jason suggested and maybe more German reserve forces.

Maybe an "exit scenario" for the H2H version.

But the AI needs flags in the rear to move there, exit scenarios do not work for the AI

BTW:

I'd like to test that scenario.

Gruß

Joachim

[ March 09, 2004, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]

[jtcm]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'd already tried a "Chir QB"--

take one weakened, Unfit, 90% complement, 70% ammo Security Battn.

+ 2 37mm ATGs

+Tank Hunters

Put in open Dec 1942, South, light damage map.

Add Soviet forces, according to taste (last time I tried, a Co T34s, a Co infy)

-- I lose every time. No 11th Panzer to save the day ! Or perhaps they're operating further inside the lines...

[Joachim]

Originally posted by jtcm:

Thanks for the suggestions. I'd already tried a "Chir QB"--

take one weakened, Unfit, 90% complement, 70% ammo Security Battn.

+ 2 37mm ATGs

+Tank Hunters

Put in open Dec 1942, South, light damage map.

Add Soviet forces, according to taste (last time I tried, a Co T34s, a Co infy)

-- I lose every time. No 11th Panzer to save the day ! Or perhaps they're operating further inside the lines...

Trenches are the thing to have on open maps... foxholes are still 44% exposure in the open. No place to stay when lots ot T34 are around - especially when they bunch up.

Just considering another idea to avoid AI bunching up: Exchanging 2 of the 3 different setup zones as reinforcements (AI scen only!)

[JasonC]

On the suggestion of tons of TRPs - no. Read the narrative. The idea is not to give the Germans whatever would help, but to recreate the abilities that stopped such attacks. The narrative explicitly says that coordination with indirect fires was poor. Arty is described as stopping some attacks, but not because of good coordination. Similarly, on the idea of special ammo for the 37mm PAK and extra tank hunter teams. The narrative explicitly says the German infantry formation forces were essentially impotent against the Russian tanks.

The defense worked because the static infantry positions could "go quiet" when faced by tanks - "hide" in the trenches - and still stop the infantry. Again that requires the large map. The HMGs and 20mm FLAK are stealthy enough when firing, that weapons behind position B can stop green infantry in open snow in front of position A. Tanks can't get the Russian infantry through A by going to A. They need to silence such weapons in too many places. And when they get close, the Germans hide, unless there is also infantry there to threaten the position.

As for watching the gullies, the Russians actually got through them successfully, at least with tanks. But sure, the defense scheme should take them into account. E.g. the 105 FO and TRP cover one, another has the 75mm leIG, another has a pair of 81s - in each case, those HE weapons on a crest looking across the open "up" terrain as well as down their particular gully. The HMGs and FLAK cover the wide open "top". When infantry running from them collects in the gullies, the HE weapons wait until it accumulates into lumps and then routs them permanently.

The 37mm PAK go on flanks, the leIG in the center, and between them want cross fire against T-70s that show themselves on the "up" portion of the map. The T-34s, forget it, let the Pz IVs alone take care of them. Until then, just hide whenever they come within 250m. You can button them to slow their reactions, but that is about it. The moment the Pz IVs show up, you want to take out one of the T-34 platoons ASAP, then rush to get to the other before more help arrives, if you can.

[Joachim]

Even with the HC ammo the guns are not very impressive. HC won't hit if more than 200m away from a gun. That's what I wanted the TRPs for - to ensure first round hits at 200m if the tanks get too close. Having 3 guns with an effective range of 200m vs T34 will not make them very potent. Not if you compare it with having 2 Pak40. If there was no 105mm spotter, I'd be much happier with setting the TRPs. IMHO the gullies should be TRPd for the mortars and the Pak/IG should have some, too. The 105mm FO should have none.

An alternative might be too have the mortars cover 2 of 3 gullies and one TRP for the third. But this still leaves the ATGs. Bonus HQs might help to achieve the overall effect.

What I want to achieve is an effect on gameplay: The Soviet player must consider a threat to his tanks, the German player has at least a chance to hurt them... if they enter certain small areas. Feeling helpless and unable to do something for several turns might result in disappointed players: A current PBEM at btn level leaves the Soviet player with probably little reserves, and little chance to react. He is not very happy with it... not with 96 turns left... but he will still fight it out! BTW: Applying some info re company advance, advancing across the open etc from the forum on btn level... from some obscure author from Chicago... with lots of time, it might work... if there is no nasty surprise.

Made a samll QB with 4 big flags set on the same line. All units moved toward the center without spotting any Germans. Tanks assembled on roads (random map...). Was very pleased with the AI behavior - except that I'd prefer less bunching up of the infantry. 80% headed thru the lone patch of trees...

Gruß

Joachim

[ March 10, 2004, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]

[jtcm]

Well I've got a scenario set up. Lots of gullies. Tried it as attack against the Germans, using default set up. Not quite right yet-- the T-34s just get too far and too deep in the German line before the PzIVs come to the rescue-- I mean the latter arrive in full sight of Sov armour

Tried another Chir QB: depleted security co., huge map.