Michael Dorosh Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 <font color="yellow">JasonC Gold Stars </font>are only given to those who meet the minimum word requirement, Andreas. That's words per post, not words per paragraph. You know better than that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabron66 Posted September 19, 2003 Author Share Posted September 19, 2003 All comments withdrawn. [ September 21, 2003, 06:32 AM: Message edited by: Cabron66 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Boggs Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 I read in Paul Carrell's Invasion-They're Coming that the major reason for the inability of the Germans to mass their three panzer divisions to counterattack at the Caen area beachheads was due to the Allied air interdiction from the skies over Normandy. Does anyone have any thoughts on that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 As regards to FF incidents, I just came across one that I am sure is not in the famous list of all 14 FF incidents that ever were in WW2, according to some defense consultant. This one is from 'The heat of battle', regimental oral history of 16th DLI. 15th Nov. 1944, 13.29 Just prior to crossing the start line the Desert Air Force were to come over and dive bomb the enemy lines [NB - obviously pre-arranged attack]. Unfortunately they mistook our line for the enemy line, and and they came over a minute before H-Hour [13.30] and dive-bombed and machine-gunned my forward position. This was most unpleasant [no sh*t!] and it was there that Denis Worrall [CO 16th DLI], who happened to be up forward, saw what was happening and he stood in the middle of the road, he hadn't got a steel helmet on, waving his stick at these aircraft to try and let them know they were machine-gunning the wrong line. There he stood in the middle of the road, and he was unperturbed and really didn't bat an eyelid. Fortunately they didn't create many casualties as far as my company was concerned and we were able to move forward. None-the-less it was a distraction and an unpleasant incident [is that British understatement or what?] at a time when everyone was keyed up to go forward. Major Laurie Stringer, B Company, 16th DLI 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becket Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Is that from the Alamein campaign Andreas? (EDIT: Clearly not with the 1944 date. Someday I'll learn to read.) I was just reading (Latimer's "Alamein" again) that the South Africans got wiped out by the DAF as the defense of Alamein was being assembled. I'll have to find the quote, something about the commander refusing to take his troops back to action if the DAF was operating that day. Boggs -- last night I was watching "Nation to Nation" (TiVo'd from History International) regarding Operation Cobra. There was a bit on Caen (the taking of which preceded Cobra) and images of the massive bombing that took place. No information about how it might have affected Panzer massing in the area, though. [ September 19, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Becket ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Boggs Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by Becket: Boggs -- last night I was watching "Nation to Nation" (TiVo'd from History International) regarding Operation Cobra. There was a bit on Caen (the taking of which preceded Cobra) and images of the massive bombing that took place. No information about how it might have affected Panzer massing in the area, though. Ooops! My bad. I did not clarify. I was referring to the road marches endured by Panzer Lehr and 12 SS Panzer during the first 48 hours after the initial assault. It seemed that the interdiction allowed the Allies (British & Canadian) to win the build-up battle in that area during the initial stages of the landing. Only 21 Panzer was near at hand, but spent the day marching and countermarching. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by Jim Boggs: I read in Paul Carrell's Invasion-They're Coming that the major reason for the inability of the Germans to mass their three panzer divisions to counterattack at the Caen area beachheads was due to the Allied air interdiction from the skies over Normandy. Does anyone have any thoughts on that? Well, 21. PD was right behind the beachhead, and in its case I think it was command failure to concentrate it, nothing to do with air attacks. 12. SS PD Hitler Jugend managed to put a strong counter-attack in June 7th, but failed against the resistance of the Canadian infantry. Thereafter it probably had more to do with the continuing widening of the front, and the refusal to send infantry divisions for the relief of the Panzerdivisionen out of the frontline that made concentrating them an issue, since they all held frontline, and were not in reserve. So no, I don't think that is correct, especially not in the light of the post by Bastables earlier dealing with it. As he said, while Panzerlehr is often quoted as an example of interdiction, in reality it lost about 100 motor vehicles. Out of a theoretical strength of probably >2,000 vehicles. Also, the division functioned quite well in Normandy, IIRC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabron66 Posted September 19, 2003 Author Share Posted September 19, 2003 All comments withdrawn. [ September 21, 2003, 06:32 AM: Message edited by: Cabron66 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: As regards to FF incidents, I just came across one that I am sure is not in the famous list of all 14 FF incidents that ever were in WW2, according to some defense consultant. I'm quite in the dark as to whether or not this is a sly jab at John Salt or not? There is mention of Typhoon attacks during the last stages of the closing of the South Beveland Peninsula by 2nd Canadian Division in Oct 1944, but I've been unable to locate any good details. I haven't read of any co-ordination between ground and air, just merciless frontal assaults against well dug in mixes of German paras and Stomach units. Of course, there was a lot of rain at the time, too...The Netherlands were rather moist at that time of year. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Originally posted by Becket: Boggs -- last night I was watching "Nation to Nation" (TiVo'd from History International) regarding Operation Cobra. There was a bit on Caen (the taking of which preceded Cobra) and images of the massive bombing that took place. No information about how it might have affected Panzer massing in the area, though. [WORKING FROM MEMORY] The attack on Caen was a waste of time, IIRC. It mostly killed French civilians. The attack preceding GOODWOOD was much more successful. The one preceding COBRA was successful twice, some people say. First it was a FF incident, but managed to get rid of Gen. L. McNair (architect of the US tank destroyer/tank divide), then it worked, and pretty much smashed up Panzerlehr and everything else in the immediate way of the breakout. [/WORKING FROM MEMORY] Here are two pages on the topic: cobra - oops Cobra - let's try that again Edit to add - this site seems overly friendly to the USAAF. Never mind. Michael - no sly stab at John. I think he will know what I mean, and he was not the consultant in question. [ September 19, 2003, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Andreas ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Here's a cut and paste of my earlier argument versus Airpower as successful at interdicting marching units. I also think you'll find that artillery directed at the kessel caused the majority of the damage to "soft targets." The out of fuel/abandoned Panzers owed more to successful allied ground offensives, as air power operating on it's own proved to be poor at even interdicting units marching to Normandy. The situation of TAC air power on marching German units provides the best equivilent of dependent and independent variable, the problem is that when squared with German loss reports the damage inflicted by air power was insignificant. Also Normandy was an army backwater meaning that fuel stockpiles were effectively non-existent relative to the number of mechanised units involved. Allied Air power merely aggravated a serious situation, it did not create it. The biggest drop in German fuel production occurred in 1944 as a direct result of occupation/capitulation of Romania by Soviet army units. The affect of allied air power is almost comically exaggerated even by the Germans, for instance a report submitted by 12. SSPz to Rommel on the 3 July states that the unit suffered considerable casualties on the march to Normandy. The report is manifestly overstated when compared with the loss of 83 men during the "marching" period. The Commander of the 9th Pz Div also catagorilly states that the victims of air attack during the march to Normandy were insignificant in spite of numerous air attacks. 2nd Pz Div was forced to cover another 150km due to knocked out bridges; the problem was that 2nd Pz Div proceeded to cover 400km in 48hrs. Panzer Lehr move to Normandy is often cited as proof of the ability of Allied airpower to interdict moving German units. The information cited is from the division commander Fritz Bayerlein, his equipment/manpower losses seem to be based on overstated memory i.e. equating the entire months losses as losses suffered during the march. Reports dated June show that 82 SPW and 10 prime movers were lost during the entire month. Ritgen, the commander of the repair and maintance coy of the PIV battalion also states that the high losses were greatly exaggerated. (2000 Zetterling) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 I'll also repost my nugget about the Caen bombings managing to wound RFL Keller, GOC of 3 Cdn Div. The buzz at the time was that "Keller was yeller", though much of his problem was with alcohol and lack of self confidence. He asked to be relieved but was turned down by Simonds. Likewise (to McNair I mean, though McNair was there as an observer, not as a combat commander), his removal from action by friendly fire was probably a blessing for many concerned. It also highlights the fact that medium bombers are not a tactical weapon on the CM scale. A bombing error such as happened at Caen was of the magnitude of several CM mapboards put together - when a friendly divisional or corps rear area gets bombed, you know the error margin was quite large. I would still like to see more of the battle experience questionnaires that I posted here; air power was not often mentioned among the panoply of front line infantry weapons that were either especially effective or especially ineffective. http://members.shaw.ca/calgaryhighlanders/queslbacon.htm This officer listed high level bombers as very frightening (but didn't say "ours or theirs" ) Again, that is not CAS. http://members.shaw.ca/calgaryhighlanders/queslyster.htm Lots of questions on artillery, signals and tanks and how they operated with the infantry - none on air support. Even prearranged air support wasn't always great; here from the horse's mouth: (From http://members.shaw.ca/calgaryhighlanders/walch.htm ) There was a bit of relief though. We did have some air support in this operation. On several occasions 'Typhoons' flew over and fired rockets at the heavy gun emplacements on Walcheren. The Jerries must have taken cover because the shelling would cease for several minutes and we would be able to get out of our trenches and cheer and shout defiance at the enemy. But the guns were not silenced. As soon as the 'Typhoons' had completed their attack the Germans resumed the bombardment."on this operation" may suggest air support wasn't too commonly seen - he joined the battalion after Normandy and served until VE Day, as a company signaller. I'm a company signaller myself and don't often see a lot of what is going on (to an infantryman, company headquarters is practically a rear area! ) but a company signaller would probably be close enough to see planes. Moreover, his memoirs would probably mention co-operation with FACs if such existed; he doesn't mention them. [ September 19, 2003, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabron66 Posted September 20, 2003 Author Share Posted September 20, 2003 All comments withdrawn. [ September 21, 2003, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: Cabron66 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabron66 Posted September 20, 2003 Author Share Posted September 20, 2003 All comments withdrawn. [ September 21, 2003, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: Cabron66 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Originally posted by Cabron66: Still going, eh? It's amazing how much mileage you can get out of one or two disparaging remarks. In all honesty though, the only cloud in my sky is the fact that it's Friday night and I'm stuck in here with all you other losers. This would be a lot funner if it were Sunday or Monday night when I feel ok with the knowledge I have sunk to an all time low by even sharing the same space as you supporters of psychiatry for years to come. Do you think it possible I am an internet addict, too? No, there's still time for me. Now, if I had spent a few years of my life in here and say...oh, I don't know...written some 10,000 posts give or take a few... (In my head I begin to do the math.) 10,000 posts X average 10 minutes per post 100,000 minutes divided by 60 minutes in an hour 16,666 hours by 24 hours in a day... (Then I remember all the time spent playing the game and simply cannot continue. Nausea overwhelms me and I run hoping I make the bathroom.) Really, is this all it takes to get you guys going? I thought you would be tougher opponents. Opponents? I thought we were discussing history, not doing battle. You've had two threads locked up already due to your negative attitude towards other posters. If you continue to post derogatory comments about people, you need to know it is against board policy - which you agreed to abide to when you registered. I don't speak for the board admin, but I do know that posters have been banned here for abusive behaviour. You take this stuff waaaayyy too seriously, little dude. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Originally posted by Cabron66: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bastables: Here's a cut and paste...Another cut and paste. You're good at those. Ever try writing anything yourself? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 At least he acknowledges ignoring your info, Bastables. He isn't even pretending to discuss the topic anymore. Kind of sad that he has to resort to broadsides against everyone in sight. This isn't the most spectacular forum deconstruction of a personality (Lewis still takes top honours - was he the one that went back and edited (deleted) every single one of his posts? - I remember JonS saying "I haven't seen a mad like THAT since..." NZers have such nice ways of putting things...) but it certainly seems to me to be one of the quickest. P51D was probably quicker (see the CMBO thread for his Wittmann "arguments") but wasn't nearly as spectacular or profane. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: (to an infantryman, company headquarters is practically a rear area! funny, that is almost exactly what Lt. Russell Collins MC (later Col. Collins) of 16th DLI carrier platoon says about the time when he had enough of leading his platoon from the front. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: (to an infantryman, company headquarters is practically a rear area! funny, that is almost exactly what Lt. Russell Collins MC (later Col. Collins) of 16th DLI carrier platoon says about the time when he had enough of leading his platoon from the front. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: (to an infantryman, company headquarters is practically a rear area! funny, that is almost exactly what Lt. Russell Collins MC (later Col. Collins) of 16th DLI carrier platoon says about the time when he had enough of leading his platoon from the front. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Actually, when we were doing internal security duties at the local railyard, I did get switched to one of the rifle sections and helped run patrols and man the radio. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: This isn't the most spectacular forum deconstruction of a personality (Lewis still takes top honours - was he the one that went back and edited (deleted) every single one of his posts? - I remember JonS saying "I haven't seen a mad like THAT since..." NZers have such nice ways of putting things...) but it certainly seems to me to be one of the quickest. That was his MajorBooBoo incarnation, when he "packed a sad" after having his illusions of PIV as the better/cost effective medium tank confronted. hell you were there old man http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=023744#000011 He was also a big fan of ignoring information and mearly lashing out. I always thought the worst one was the plagiarist PhD character who Andreas uncovered and confronted. Can?t remember the name but I do remember he first began posting in a thread about German IG guns. [ September 19, 2003, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPeng Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 He hates all of you, and he is stalking Seanacahi as his Mordant Emily, but he said he LOVES me!!! He loves me he loves me he LOVES me!!! I can die a happy man right now... hey! I know what you are thinking and NO I ain't gonna. Peng 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Originally posted by MrPeng: He hates all of you, and he is stalking Seanacahi as his Mordant Emily, but he said he LOVES me!!! He loves me he loves me he LOVES me!!! I can die a happy man right now... hey! I know what you are thinking and NO I ain't gonna. Peng Makes me glad I've switched from Dunhill's flake to Borkum Riff's Black cavendish. One needs a lighter tobacco when confronted with half Mexican Canadians with a Christ complex. Although a true Christ figure would love everyone really, so he's only half chirst like, parallel to his half ethnicities and quite symmetrical. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Chapuis Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Originally posted by Cabron66: (In my head I begin to do the math.) 10,000 posts X average 10 minutes per post 100,000 minutes divided by 60 minutes in an hour 16,666 hours by 24 hours in a day... And he has trouble with math. Dorosh, I loved your pirate talk. That was hilarious. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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