Michael Dorosh Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 I am just wondering about the correct designations of the forces that fought in the Med. The British Army is the correct designation, as the Army has never been Royal. The Canadian Army is similarly correct. The United States Army is also correct I presume? Would Australian Army be correct, or would it be Australian Military Forces ? What about New Zealand? Is there such a thing as The New Zealand Army , or rather, was there in WW II? Or is New Zealand Expedtionary Force more correct? Also, South African Army and Indian Army - is this the proper nomenclature? And how would we describe the soldiers of II Polish Corps??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Would Australian Army be correct, or would it be Australian Military Forces ? According to the Australian War memorial web site: 1939-1942: AMF- Australian Military Forces Militia (known unofficially as the AMP (often corrupted to Australian Militia Forces)) AIF -Australian Imperial Force PMF -Permanent Military Forces 1943-1946: AMF -Australian Military Forces CMF -Citizens Military Forces PMF -Permanent Military Forces AIF -Australian Imperial Force Mace 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted April 21, 2003 Author Share Posted April 21, 2003 Thank you! So the Australian Military Forces was the blanket term, and AIF was the overseas force that fought in North Africa? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Thank you! So the Australian Military Forces was the blanket term, and AIF was the overseas force that fought in North Africa? Yep, the CMF only took part in the New Guinea campaign and of course the defence of Australia. Mace 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by Mace: Yep, the CMF only took part in the New Guinea campaign and of course the defence of Australia. Mace I'm not sure that "only" is appropriate as it sounds like a small contribution. I suspect the men at Kokoda would not agree. Anyway as long as you buy them a beverage on Friday. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted April 22, 2003 Author Share Posted April 22, 2003 bump 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Ryan Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 The ausies and the new zealanders were called the ANZACs - ausie, new zealand army corps iam pretty sure (but not fully) that they fought side by side during WW2, an example is, it was reported that a anzac force captured torbuck. [ April 22, 2003, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Jack Ryan ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WineCape Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Michael, Regarding the correct term for the South Afican forces and those involved in WWII (Italy + North Africa) look here: SA Forces in WWII Basic Info 6th Armored Division in Italy SA Army Formations in WWII "South African Army" will do just fine. It was later changed to the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) circa 1960/70's - if memory serves correctly - during the Rhodesian/Angolan bush war Regards, Charl Theron [ April 22, 2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: WineCape ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropey Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 If it means anything my Granddad's mail was always addressed 2 NZEF with sometimes MEF or CMF appended. Never NZ Army. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigadier Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 When the Second World War broke out Australia still had an army that by law was not allowed to go overseas. So, once again we had to raise a special force of volunteers to do a particular job. It was called the Australian Imperial Force as the WW1 army had been. Naturally it gathered the non official prefix of second and has been called the Second AIF ever since. Because Battalions had a strong local support base there was huge community pressure to keep Battalion numbers the same as WW1, which led to the decision to label Battalions 'Second' so we got the Second First Battalion (2/1st Bn AIF) and the Second Twenty Ninth Battalion (2/29th) etc... There was no such pressure to maintain divisional numbers so the divisional numbers ran on from the numbers (1 through 5 inclusive) used in WW1. So we got the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Divisions AIF. 10th Division was started but never completely formed. As well there was the CMF (Militia) Divisions and Battalions which had completely separate numbers, some of which were the same as former 1st AIF units. Many of the 1st AIF Battalion numbers were held by CMF Units. Carry on chaps [ April 25, 2003, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Brigadier ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 Originally posted by Jack Ryan: The ausies and the new zealanders were called the ANZACs - ausie, new zealand army corps The Australian and New Zealand Army Corps was the WW1 Corps that invaded Gallipoli and later fought on the Western Front. Aussie and NZer soldiers have been referred to as ANZACs ever since in their honour. I believe it was ANZAC day yesterday. In North Africa, in WW2, the Australian and New Zealand divisions were part of the Western Desert Force, which later became XIII Corps and later still the Eighth Army. Edit: XIII Corps, not VIII Corps as I originally wrote. [ April 25, 2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Firefly ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted April 25, 2003 Author Share Posted April 25, 2003 Excellent stuff all around, thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biltong Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 Hi Michael, I see your site does not feature SA forces, yet Here’s a comment you might find interesting. “On 1 Feb 43 the 6th South African Armoured Division was formed….On 24 May 44 the 24th Guards Brigade came under SA command. It was to fight with the South Africans until Feb 45 and as a result of this additional strength the 6th South African Armoured Division was probably the most powerful formation in Italy. The Division fought on in Italy until the German surrender in 1945, sustaining some 3,543 casualties. “The Armed Forces of WWII” Andrew Mollo, Orbis Publishing London, 1981 P 139. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigadier Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 The famous "Mermaid Insignia" , worn by members of the 2nd Corps. The Polish "2nd Korpus" were a superbly motivated formation of men.... I salute them. General Wladislaw Sikorski, the head of the Polish Government in London, entered into negotiations with Soviet Government to free Poles detained in the USSR and to recruit them to form a new army. As a result, agreements were signed in July and August 1941 and two Polish infantry divisions began to be organised int the area of Orenburg. Maj. General Wladislaw Anders, himself a former prisoner, was appointed to command the new army. In December 1941, as a result of new negotiations, it was decided to expand the Polish Army to six divisions and also to transfer a contingent of 25,000 men to the West. The move to Iran started on 23 March 1942. Due to ever-increasing Soviet reluctance to provide supplies to the new army, which was reduced to starvation, and the Soviets’ general lack of co-operation, another Polish contingent left the Soviet Union in August. Once in the Middle East, the Poles went through a period of reorganisation and training under the designation of Polish Army in the East. The Independent Carpathian Rifle Brigade which had won fame at Tobruk and in the Western Desert, with units from the Soviet Union, became the 3rd Carpathian Rifle Division. The other formations created at that time were the 5th ‘Kresowa’ Infantry Division, the 2nd Armoured Brigade and the 2nd Artillery Group. In June 1943, this force was redesignated 2nd Polish Corps. The 1st Polish Corps was formed in the United Kingdom. During July and August, the 2nd Polish Corps moved to Palestine where it participated in the autumn manoeuvres were partly held in mountainous areas in order to acquaint the troops with the terrain they would encounter after arriving at their new destination, Italy. Units of the 3rd Carpathian Rifle Division started to disembark at Taranto on 21 December 1943. The transfer of all the Polish forces from Egypt continued until the middle of April 1944, troops landing at Taranto, Bari and Naples. The Corps was followed by the 2nd Corps Base which comprised the 7th Infantry Division as training reserve, training and servicing centres, hospitals and other supporting units. The first Polish unit to see action in Italy was the Independent Commando Company, which fought on the Garigliano river. Due to shortage of manpower. The two divisions each comprised only two infantry brigades: the 3rd Division had the 1st and the 2nd Carpathian Rifle Brigade; and the 5th Division contained the 5th ‘Wilenska’ and the 6th ‘Lwowska’ Infantry Brigade. The rest of the divisional order of battle followed the British pattern: three field artillery regiments; one anti-tank and one anti-aircraft artillery regiment; a reconnaissance regiment – the 12th ‘Podolski’ Lancers and the 15th ‘Poznanski’ Lancers in the 3rd and 5th Divisions, respectively; and all the other supporting and servicing units of the average infantry division. The Corps’ 2nd Armoured Brigade comprised three armoured regiments and support units. Finding replacements for the severe casualties suffered by the corps posed a constant problem because the Polish Government’s policy was to deploy the corps together. The problem was solved by enlisting Poles from POW camps – men from the Polish territory annexed by Germany in 1939 who had later forcibly been recruited into the Wehrmacht, and subsequently captured by the Allies. The Highest Accolade Telegram received by 2nd Corpus H.Q. after the final battle for Monte Cassino. "Soldiers from the 2 Polish Corps, I can sincerely assure you, that if I were to choose any soldiers to command - I would choose you. I honour you." Field - Marshal Alexander. Supreme Allied Commander -Mediterranean Theatre. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted April 26, 2003 Share Posted April 26, 2003 Originally posted by Brigadier: There was no such pressure to maintain divisional numbers so the divisional numbers ran on from the numbers (1 through 5 inclusive) used in WW1. So we got the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Divisions AIF. 10th Division was started but never completely formed.Don't forget the 1st Armoured Div, which was formed and spent its life in WA waiting for a Japanese invasion that never, thankfully, arrived. Now there's an interesting spin on CMAK - similar terrain Aust M3's V fanatical Japanese (pity we don't have Japanese armour). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted April 27, 2003 Share Posted April 27, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: What about New Zealand? Is there such a thing as The New Zealand Army , or rather, was there in WW II? Or is New Zealand Expedtionary Force more correct?2NZEF was the blanket term for all forces sent overseas during WW2 (and therefore includes 3(NZ)Div which served in the Pacific). The NZ forces in the Med were eventually to be called 2(NZ)Div from about June/July 1942 IIRC. Before that they were simply NZ Div. Colloquially they often referred to themselves as 'The Div', with an emphasis on the 'The' The New Zealand Army is a valid term. This provides a nice run-down of the organisation of the ZN Army in the early years of the war. There are equivalent pages for the other Commonwealth nations, linked from here. Biltong, in Italy it was normal for Commonwealth armoured divisions to have two infantry and one armoured brigade, so in that respect 6 (SA) Armd Div was just like any other. From my readings the NZ Div was usually reckoned to be the stongest formation in Italy, with a full muster of some 20,000+ all ranks. The Guards Bde moved on to other assignments when the Yarpies finally got their act together and provided another inf bde of their own Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigadier Posted April 27, 2003 Share Posted April 27, 2003 Yes gibsonm , it would be nice to see a "Pacific Theater" game . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted April 27, 2003 Author Share Posted April 27, 2003 Originally posted by Biltong: Hi Michael, I see your site does not feature SA forces, yet Reckon I ought to do something about that, hmm? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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