MG area of effect

[walpurgis nacht]

-Blue dot: MG position

-Orange dot: MG area fire target

-Yellow circle: area of MG (LMG and HMG) effect. It is 100m diameter exactly.

-Green half circle: Note which units are hugging the ground in this back area, and which are not. The RULE. . . . if a unit in cover has LOS to an enemy MG position, and is within the 100m diameter, they will be effected.

[ March 13, 2005, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Nacht ]

[walpurgis nacht]

So you can see how powerful the area of effect is with this HMG34.

When the units above drop, they spot as if they were "hiding". In other words their ability to spot is seriously reduced. This is a useful tool! Area fire into the forward terrain in your scouting process and you will get very real results.

The further away from the eye of the area fire, the less impact the HMG has. So often the infantry on the edges only flicker through "taking cover". But this acts very much like buttoning an enemy tank . . . his reaction time is delayed, improving the odds your scout on point will make it to his forward destination.

One of many ways to make good use of your HMGs.

[GreenAsJade]

Wow! Dramatic demo, all in one picture!

Thanks!

[Bigduke6]

Walpurgis Nacht,

Very useful, thank you. I wonder if the area of effect is the same for all MGs?

[l.cassidy]

-Yellow circle: area of MG (LMG and HMG) effect. It is 100m diameter exactly.

Looks like a 10x10 m. gridded map to me, so the suppressed area's diameter should be about 40m.

Probably you got confused by the distance between the MG position (blue dot) and the area fire target (orange dot) that seems to be around 100m.

Didn't mean to criticize your work, though!

And the idea of area fire ahead of the scouting path is really interesting!

Thanks!

Cassidy

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by l.cassidy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> -Yellow circle: area of MG (LMG and HMG) effect. It is 100m diameter exactly.

Looks like a 10x10 m. gridded map to me, so the suppressed area's diameter should be about 40m.

Probably you got confused by the distance between the MG position (blue dot) and the area fire target (orange dot) that seems to be around 100m.

Didn't mean to criticize your work, though! </font>

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

Walpurgis Nacht,

Very useful, thank you. I wonder if the area of effect is the same for all MGs?

The above test was run with all sorts of MGs . . . and yes the area of effect is the same with them all.

[walpurgis nacht]

double post.

[l.cassidy]

Why, you didn't criticize it at all. You're simply . . . wrong [Wink]

Hi WN,

forgive me if I insist, but are you sure the tiles in your pic are 20m ? Did you measured them with the LOS tool? Ready to bet a beer on that?

Cheers

Cassidy

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by l.cassidy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Why, you didn't criticize it at all. You're simply . . . wrong [Wink]

Hi WN,

forgive me if I insist, but are you sure the tiles in your pic are 20m ? Did you measured them with the LOS tool? Ready to bet a beer on that?

Cheers

Cassidy </font>

[l.cassidy]

Hey, your (and my life) is definitely more than a beer!

If only I knew how to post pics... :mad:

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[JasonC]

Game - CMBB

Terrain - open steppe

Shooter - unspotted HMG42 in trench at 293m, FP = 72, target exposure = 65%

Target - platoon HQ - taking cover, alerted.

MMG team at 8m left rear - taking cover, alerted.

ATR team at 14m right rear - taking cover.

Squad at 20m right front - taking cover.

Squad at 26m left front - fine.

Squad at 32m left - fine

50mm at 38m left rear - fine

LMG at 44m right rear - fine

squad at 49m right front - fine

20m took cover, 26m did not. 8m was alerted, 14m was not.

[JasonC]

One squad advances to within 100m, with the HMG on a shortened arc. HMG resumes fire at the Russian platoon HQ, using a narrow arc to avoid firing at the closer squad. It remains a sound contact for a burst or two (no diff), then resolves to a full ID.

Platoon HQ - pinned. MG at 8m - taking cover and alerted. ATR at 14m - taking cover and alerted. Squad at 20m - taking cover. All others - not effect.

In CMBB anyway, 26m is safe distance. It may have changed for CMAK.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by JasonC:

In CMBB anyway, 26m is safe distance. It may have changed for CMAK.

Yup. Big difference between BB and AK. You still avoiding AK? MGs actually work.

[edgars]

As far as i can see, the distance between MG and target point is 200m. What happens if the distance is increased? Or decresed?

[ March 15, 2005, 03:33 AM: Message edited by: edgars ]

[JasonC]

I've played AK some but not nearly as much as BB. Not for MG modeling differences, because (1) I am analysing the Russians and (2) arty prices in CMAK particularly for the US. I like the dust, and I was eager to try out much more realistic Americans. But Americans with arty out of reach aren't realistic to me. (Properly made scenarios can get around that, but I haven't had the time to make them).

[l.cassidy]

I did some tests with a HMG34 (commanded by a plt. HQ) firing "area fire" to 3 plts. of british engineers (regular) placed at 100m, 250m and 500m.

Walpurgis Nacht is right: the area of effect has roughly a diameter of 90/100m regardless of the MG-to-target distance.

Here are some pics from the 250m. test:

The 3 platoons are placed along the treeline, with some squads in open terrain. The yellow dot represent the MG area fire target.

This pic is a snapshot taken during the first movie (from the German side): the units with the red dot immediately hug the ground, some start crawling back towards the treeline. The squads with the green dot are not affected by the MG fire.

Same turn, seen from the Brits' side: the units in the open have sneaked back to the trees. The units with the red dots are suffering from the area fire: at every burst, they hit the ground. Some recover better than others, depending from their HQ morale. The squads with green dots never take cover, but never shoot back either.

I traced a LOS line between the outer squads affected by the MG fire to have a better reference.

I ended the test around turn 5. In both the 250m and 500m tests the MG remains undetected (sound contact). In the 100m test, the area of effect remains the same but the MG is easily spotted, some squads open up despite the shot cover arc. The MG ignores tha area target order and begins to target specifical squads. In the end, the MG goes down and panics.

This pic is for Walpurgis Nacht.

I have the gridded sand/arid terrain mod by Caffino that has a 10mX10m grid.

From the pic you posted, you seem to have the same (or similar) terrain mod.

That's why I said that probably you were wrong giving the area of effect a diameter of 100m: the yellow circle in that pic you posted has a +/- 50m diameter.

I stink in math, but I've counted the squares...

I'll be glad to buy you that drink, if one of us should ever cross the pond!

Cheers

Cassidy

[jtcm]

Interesting post-- shows you just how sharp the knives are which Walpurgis takes to the fight. I propse WN for title of BCMPINTWFW.

Some thoughts.

1. Does this mean that CMAK implements a "beaten zone" model for HMGs ?

2. Does 100m strike anyone as rather large for a "b.z." ? Do bullets yaw across a circle 100m large at any range ? That's a big circle. Or do trained soldiers flinch when HMG bursts kick up dust up to 50m away ?

3. Did people do this in WWII ? I can think of the description of Brigadier Ritchie-Hook in E. Waugh, Men at Arms, ordering full belts of Vickers fired at target during attack-- not quite the same, in work of fiction.

4. Do people still do this ? Speculative fire ? Preventive fire ?

5. Isn't the downside that your HMGs are less responsive in the overwatch role ?

[jtcm]

that should be

BCMPITWFW

[YankeeDog]

IIRC, the manual specifically states that Area Fire has a larger area of effect than fire targetted at a specific unit (but is obviously less powerful).

This may explain the difference between Jason's results in CMBB & Walpurgis' & Cassidy's results; note that in Jason's test, he have the MG a hard target.

But anyway, my take on jtcm's points:

1. Yes. I would call this "suppression circle" a rudimentary modeling of Beaten Zone.

2. Depends. IRL, the size and shape of a beaten zone depends on a wide variety of factors, including range, slope of terrain, the way the MG crew is firing the gun, etc. Usually, though, they aren't circular -- they're deeper than they are wide at most likely combat ranges. I don't think 100m wide for an "Area Fire" area of effect is necessarily unrealistic in and of itself, though.

3. Do what? Engage in speculative fire on general areas thought to possibly contain enemy? Absolutely. So-called recon-by-fire was a quite common tactic.

4. Couldn't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure "yes."

5. Yes. If a "real" target shows itself, the MG usually won't switch off the Area Target until it is directly threatened.

Cheers,

YD

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

This may explain the difference between Jason's results in CMBB & Walpurgis' & Cassidy's results; note that in Jason's test, he have the MG a hard target.

YD

Probably the single biggest difference between AK and BB is how effective MG fire is. That explains some of the differences . . and you've nailed the other on the head isolating the difference between area fire and direct.

As for Mr. Cassidy . . .this fellow still hasn't figured out that there is more than one grid mod available to the public. . . and I"m not going to hold his hand to explain any more until he sends me my BEER!

It's a pity I ran so many tests on these things when AK was in it's alpha/beta form. I didn't really save any of them besides the picture at the top. So it goes.

Just remember as much as some (like myself) would just love to package all the details of this game and make a science out of it, it just isn't possible. Every little variable tends to impact everything else.

[Shmavis]

You can't order a MG(or any other unit, for that matter) to oscillate or scatter their fire in a suppressive mode. I think this is why there is an area of effect.