Russian infantry illustrated - meeting engagement

[JasonC]

He isn't defending, it is a meeting engagement. No foxholes. Nobody in position early, either. He doesn't know where I am, since he doesn't have a screen of eyes watching my every move from the start line.

Also, look at the third map. You will notice the position I chose for the left weapons platoon is a kind of salient of woods between two wide areas of open ground. One, to their right front, is toward the house and the objective. The other is to their left front, and they did not wind up needing it very much. But it is there - a wide open field to cross, if they try to go around my left, wide.

The left weapons platoon has my best platoon HQ, with +2 combat. It has 2 squads and 2 MMGs, plus an 82mm. Not a pushover, in full woods behind open ground. And they are in position as rapidly as any attackers could get there.

There is only one covered approach to the left side weapons platoon. It is a narrow band of scattered tree tiles strung between their woods, and the main body of the woods opposite. While it is narrow, they could try to cross over there.

But now look at where my reserve is, still in the 3rd map. It is in the woods before the house, sheltered fully by the point platoon, against anybody directly ahead. It has 3 squads at the left treeline there. This is not some big 1000m map. The range from that tree line across the snow to the little scattered tree "bridge" is only about 150 meters. They just do a left face and fire parallel to and just ahead of my overall line, and stop any close approach to the left weapons platoon from the front. Two platoons sent at my left do not achieve local odds, therefore.

Centrally placed reserves, overprotected points, these create strong and flexible deployments. The heavy weapons groups were deliberately steered to positions fronted by wide expanses of open, to use their range across it but also as "moats" to protect the weapons themselves.

No, the only thing I was seriously concerned about was something like an 81mm FO hitting the woods just past the house while a firefight was in progress.

A human might have put a decent heavy weapons group of his own in the edge-hugging tall pines on my far right, with another back where the AI had its most effective HMG. To rake my right weapons, not the left. Going for fire dominance across the open ground to my right front.

Then push a platoon into the scattered trees to lengthen the frontage in the center, as the AI attempted. But with my right side weapons not able to stop the move, because his own take them out first. Stay back from the map-center treeline and avoid my left weapons that way, as far as possible.

That might have led to a pretty even fight, but I don't dislike my position even then. It gives equality, that's all. What it tried did not, and I don't think a wide turning movement around my left would have, either. Reasonable question, though.

[JasonC]

The problem with putting 2-3 squads in the narrow neck, is overstacking in an area that is sure to get "hot" fast. Left weapons has an HQ that is on a short arc - SOP. They won't see it so they won't panick it. It spots for an 82mm. A few 82mm shells in that tiny spot and everybody there eats snow. The reserve platoon is 150m away not 50m, it is true. But 3 squads hitting one tile of scattered trees are going to suppress everyone that tries to move through that tile.

So yeah, he can bring up forces opposite, and fire, and suppress any of the forward units in left weapons that he has seen by then. But he can't readily get a force across into my woods rather than his, that can wipe out 2 squads and 2 MGs and an HQ. Certainly not rapidly. If only 1-2 get in, like as not they get eaten instead of doing the eating. As for the duel across the open, I've got HE to throw, +2 combat, MGs that fire as strong as ever any moment they are upright. He has to send scouts first which I will blow up. I'm not greatly worried.

A full company in that one block of woods could outshoot them, but it would take that much or nearly so. That would mean using the big middle woods and just lining its front treeline with men. OK, all my left weapons work. And his flank guard is whatever he sends to the house area. I've got 9 squads there. I've got a covered route, full woods, 100m wide. I'm going to get into his house before he gets into mine, and roll him up my right to my left. With HE hitting the men at the treeline just ahead of my main body approach. Right weapons do a left face, move 100m through cover, and take the place of the reserve at the "T" treeline.

The dominant piece of terrain is that big woods on his side of the board just beyond the house. We can both get to it on a reasonably wide, covered front - enough for a platoon at least. His biggest decision is how to use it. He can use the front, center treeline to firefight my left. I don't think that is a strong use of it. He can use it as he did, as a safe approach route to the house area. Works terrain wise but it is exactly what I am set up for. Or he can widen that to my right. Not much else to work with.

My right seems to me the obvious play, out of those choices. He can have his main body in those big woods, so I can't just waltz in there myself. He can apply pressure at the house area when he thinks the time is right, "cresting" in effect, but hang back farther in the trees and off the center-side treeline, as his "reverse slope". The right time for pressure is when his own left = my right is dominated. I get less fire, he gets room for a second platoon, his weapons from the pines at the right edge can angle in toward the house area, etc.

I've still got the ability to duel with right weapons, defend the house area with the point platoon. And then I have maneuver options - I can swing forward on my left and try for the front edge of the big woods - if I think his weight isn't there. That same little neck becomes a route for a scout from left weapons to see if the coast is clear. If it is, the reserve can reinforce the right and point to hold to the degree needed, or attack on my left.

My left weapons are not in the best position immediately in that case. But they are a bit of a second line, to hit anyone who actually makes it in to the house area or beyond. I'd probably have the company HQ pick up their plain squads for the left hook.

All pretty simply movements, no great advantage either way. But that is against his best approach, which isn't obvious without knowing where I am. And he's got lots of ways to do worse, including the way he tried.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Start your own thread and teach your own lessons, any way you like. If it is vastly superior to everything else ever offered, the forum will beat a path to your door. It is also work.

Just pointing out that it would be a whole different ballpark if you olayed vs a human and that the tactics used in this example could be invalid in such a context. I thought you posting your little tactical nuggets were so people could comment on them, not just praise them.

[Krautman]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Could I do it reversed? Sure, in the proper setting and with the proper forces. It is mostly sensible command against unimaginative blundering. The point is precisely that proper handling does not merely exchange off messily against poor handling, it just flat beats it, completely, rapidly, cheaply. Even infantry only, even in tight terrain.

When posing my question i thought of a series of posts in the "anthology of useful posts", describing a H2H QB that had german rifle infantry attacking entrenched russian smg infantry in heavily wooded terrain. The attacker got a ~70% victory.

I thought before that this was impossible. Sadly, the AAR was not illustrated, and i would like to see this done and HOW it's done.

The "proper setting" and the "proper forces" would mean infantry with some support (2-4 Mgs and 1-2 guns per cpy) in a wooded area.

Russian infantry is superiour, so seeing the whole thing done against the odds would prove quite interesting.

[JasonC]

Proper forces for the Germans to fight SMG infantry in woods means they have things like their company 81s, they have things like 105mm FOs, they have things like 75mm leIGs on map if they don't have tank support, etc. And they would use Jagers if infantry force type, or panzergrenadiers with some armor support.

In the past I illustrated with Dorosh a German attack on SMG infantry in a large town, with the approach over open ground. Ran out of time, exchanged down forces but he kept most of the flags for a tactical victory. (That was a "sides reversed" repeat of a previous outing, in which I wanted to show the power of SMGs on defense, which I won easily).

The German plan used 170mm prep fire and 2 on map sIGs, one of which Mike knocked out fairly quickly, while the other fired off its entire HE load. Serious HE, in other words. That being the "proper forces" for the heavy urban setting, tackling SMGs without any armor support.

Against just Russian infantry, it is enough to have the standard support weapons and a reasonable plan. If they have special advantages you want specials that counter them.

I spend more time showing how to use the Russians because I think they are underappreciated and because they suit my attrition, "keep it simple" style of play, without relying on brilliancies. There are more than enough tactical prima donnas who favor the Germans.

[Krautman]

I wouldn't say favouring the germans makes you a tactical prima donna. You said it yourself - a german attack on a russian infantry position requires the use of various support weapons, which means a careful tactical approach is required. As you know, using towed guns on the attack isn't really simple. In addition, spending lots of points on support weapons means your infantry force is few in numbers and has to be handled with care. A russian assault just requires infantry massed. The handling of which, no doubt, is also an art in itself.

I'm actually astonished at the fact that the russians are underappreciated, as is shown in the "germanophiles" thread. I have started playing with russians recently, and i think they have an excellent array of infantry, support stuff, and armor to chose from. They lack a sIG, but otherwise, from rifle-heavy to pure smg infantry, from great mortars with tons of ammo, and good tanks (the light tanks are really worth a purchase, i found out), the russians have everything.

What you mean by "tactical prima donnas" is probably the standard "i want to play a king tiger" gamer, which is not common around serious gamers anyway, i think. E.g. some play mostly "grey period" games, and you can't call them prima donnas at all. Ever done a may 42 defence with rifle infantry, Pak 38 and PzIIIJ shortys vs motorized A & smg squads and T-34M43s? Or a PzII+III steppe assault against T-34s and ZIS-3 guns in trenches?

[ June 19, 2005, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Krautman ]

[Krautman]

(double post)

[Andrew H.]

Thanks Jason, this is interesting as always.

FWIW, I'm also a big fan of using Green Sov. infantry - I find that in most attacking/ME games, the advantages of having a few more platoons significantly outweigh the disadvantages of having green troops, especially with historical deployments that make appropriate use of support weapons.

That's my theory, anyway; my deployments aren't generally as well thought out as your example, being something like "This blob of troops will go *here*, this smaller blob will go *here*, this third blob with the sucky leader will go into reserve, and the support weapons will follow the first blob on *this* path."

[HarryInk]

I really appreciate your work, JasonC. I've been playing for yonks yet still search out your presentations and learn every time.

Less testosterone and more humility from some critics, I suggest (though 'a certain dogmatism' has to be welcome! lol). The best remedy would be to provide alternative examples and to appreciate the difference between arguing the points and arguing 'ad homimem'. That said, I also appreciate the alternative tactics offered by later correspondents.

[ July 07, 2005, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: HarryInk ]