how the heck do you attack over open ground

[PLM]

im talking extreme ranges. a kilometer with no cover and light artillery support with about an equal amount of armor as the enemy? Even once you ID enemy troops? How do you take them down? I always run out of ammo if i get close enough to have a decent ammount of firepower coming out of my infantry squads. Its a nitemare. Anything that leaves cover (as in slight hill rises and brush) gets supressed and set fleeing. Its a nitemare

there is no cover. Im talking a kilometer of open ground.

btw im mostly talking about playing as the Germans in CMBB vs Soviet units.

[yacinator]

Smoke...

[Sergei]

There must be several threads about such tactics. All the way from the demo discussions about Yelnia Stare. And then JasonC's written something about fire & movement.

Usually you don't have enough smoke to cover very long advances, better to save that for the final stretches. Nor is wasting bullets on unseen, dug-in defenders recommendable. Just advance slow, let your men recover their morale before continuing.

[Bonxa]

Use covered arcs to keep your men from firing until you are 100 meters off or so. Use short advances (20-30 meters) and let people rest and recover morale inbetween. Also save your support fire for the last push when you have a decent idea of where the enemy is.

This has been discussed before as Sergei pointed out. It is tedious but if you have more men and preferably a few morale boosting HQs in the front line it's doable. Arty and HE chucking stuff is your worst enemy, you'll just have to soak it up.

Have fun!

[jjelinek]

Below is from Jason C's Guide To Combat Mission Tactics.

INFANTRY ATTACKING TACTICS

Part 1:

Here is a primer on attacking infantry tactics, especially with the rifle and LMG infantry types, like the early war Germans.

First just get the leading platoon of squad infantry close enough for a full ID of the shooting defenders, as opposed to sound contacts.

Once that close, get them into any available nearby cover and halt them. Do not attempt to close further. This should be 250-175 yards.

Only once the nearest platoon is halted and in cover, and thus able to suppress defenders with its own fire, should the other platoons of the company try to close.

Heavy weapons from the entire company should be targeted enemy shooters once full IDs are made. Your heavy weapons should be ~150-200m behind your leading squad infantry, thus 300-500m from the enemy.

Enemy guns and MGs should be targeted by 81mm mortars, one minute of fire by a single mortar for each. If you have 50mm mortars instead, they should fire in pairs at a single target for 2 minutes. Do not continue to blow ammo on a target already "heads down".

Your own HMGs should do "pursuit by fire" of any enemy that break, to prevent rally. They should cover the open ground areas around firing defenders to prevent reinforcement of the position you are attacking.

Last, enemy heavy weapons that have already been pinned should be assigned 1 HMG to keep their heads down and prevent rally. Do not expect HMG fire alone to break defenders in cover at range. HMGs *keep* pins, they only create them if the target is in the open.

Squad infantry can engage in ordinary fire, AI choosing the target, to suppress the volume of enemy fire. But if you need it to pin or break a particular shooter, group select an entire platoon and have them all fire on a single enemy unit, which should be within 250 yards.

Fire by single squads is ineffective beyond about 100m against targets in decent cover, which defenders practically always have.

As the nearest platoon and your heavy weapons suppress the enemy shooters, their longer range guns and HMGs in particular, movement by your other platoons should get easier.

When these "rear" platoons maneuver, the idea is to get them within 250m of the enemy and inside cover. As close as 100m in good cover (woods, pines, stone buildings) if that is possible.

The movement itself should be accomplished using the "advance" command, in 1 minute rushes. If taking fire, halt a minute before the next rush with that unit, while somebody else moves.

If a unit shot in the open goes into "cover panic" (a sideways sneak order toward the nearest cover, often very much the wrong direction), do not attempt to replot a different, faster movement order for that unit. If the sneak will get them into cover within 10m, leave it. Otherwise, clear the order (backspace or halt), and give *no* replacement movement order. Sit a minute instead.

The purpose of the pauses is to give the enemy somebody else to shoot at. Movement draws fire. It also increases exposure and prevents facing the shooter. The morale effect of fire is increased if you are moving in the open. Sneak is also tiring.

At long range, enemy fire even into the open will only pin, if spread over all of your men. It is "rally power" that absorbs long range fire - the snap back from cautious or pinned to OK or altered, by unit after unit, turn after turn. The defender's ammo supply does not rally.

There is an exception to this rule, however. 75mm and larger HE will break your men faster than the enemy will have to worry about ammo. If heavy guns are hitting your moving men, you should give up the attempted movement, get everyone out of LOS of the HE chucker ASAP, and neutralize said chucker with ranged heavy weapons or tanks of your own. Only proceed with the squad infantry after it has been silenced. Fortunately, the larger guns have reasonably large firing signatures, so you should have more than a sound contact to reply to.

Infantry attacks are made slow by the need to use short advance orders of 50-100m, to stop for minute long pauses to rest or while under fire, halts for 2-3 minutes inside cover to fully rally or return fire, 1-2 platoons moving at once, and sometimes 2 squads out of a platoon moving at once instead of the whole group. Closing the average range by 100-200m can take 5-10 minutes.

You must limit your shooting at range, or a long approach period can easily eat up your available ammo without seriously hurting the defenders. They have rally power too. You overcome it by not just "alerting", but breaking, the units you choose to "pick on". And by preventing them from rallying, via pursuit (by fire from range using HMGs, or by maneuvering squad infantry into their old positions).

When in doubt, hold fire with your squad infantry until the range is under 150m. If the range is falling and your ammo is still high, you are winning, even if more of your men are down than of the defenders. The defenders can't kill all of you at long range without running out of ammo. And they can't withstand the full short range firepower of your superior numbers, if you haven't blown the ammo early too far away.

Plan to firefight the defenders from some body of cover 100m-200m ahead of their positions, not to run into the body of cover they occupy while they are still up and firing.

Only when you see parts of the enemy defense break - squads gone heads down, abandoning their positions, his fire visibly slackening, your own men rallying - should you think about advancing into his original positions.

Fire ascendency, not the physical presence of your men, takes ground. And rifle + LMG infantry exercises its fire ascendency best *beyond* the effective range of enemy SMGs.

When you do decide to advance into an enemy position, the approach group should match the enemy in scale. If it is a lone MG, one squad can close. If it was a platoon position, you will want to send a full platoon. Do not try to overload an intact defense with gobs of targets - that just generates gobs of broken friendlies.

Forget about using half squads for assault groups. They don't have the firepower or the morale. Under normal circumstances, the minimum unit of maneuver is a full platoon, not a half squad. A half squad can scout and draw fire, that is about it.

The assault group should halt immediately inside whatever body of cover the enemy was using. Only go far enough in to create a tiny sheltered space for your HQ and any follow on teams. Remember that LOS distances are reciprocal in close infantry fighting inside the same body of cover.

Such fighting is decided above all by which side enters the conflict up and rallied, as opposed to broken or pinned. Numbers do not appreciably help if the men are heads down. If neither side is broken, the advantage goes to the first trigger pull, so it is better to be sitting than moving.

There are other key tactics once in the final, same-cover knife fight. The biggest is differential LOS. This means creeping a whole platoon barely into LOS of only the foremost enemy unit, while the rest are still too far to see (e.g. 40m or more in woods or pines). Small advances are the way to get this effect.

Flanking is another principle. Units respond poorly to close range fire from 2 different directions. If not superior in short range weapons (like SMGs), then close to grenade or close combat range, from the new direction.

If you are superior in SMGs, close to 50m, or the limits of LOS in woods or pine, to break enemies before they can use grenades or close combat.

Assault is rarely needed. Advance is the most commonly used order. You can use it to move to within 5-10m of an enemy unit as long as that unit is already heads down. Normally if he isn't, and you are already in LOS, you are better off firing. Assault can be used when it is a question of 5-10m from a blind side, or getting into demo charge range for pioneers.

Pioneer infantry is the early war German version of assault or close combat infantry. They become deadly a little beyond 30m, making them perfect at fights in pine or woods. Use "area target use explosives" to throw demo charges up to 30m.

They do not need to get all the way to the enemy. They will pin or break everyone within a wide area as soon as they go off. The following minute the rest can wade in with small arms and flame against already cowering men. Think of the demos as "instant fire ascendency" - the "flash bangs" ahead of the "SWAT team".

When working with tanks, they take over the role of the HMGs and mortars. Their HE is used like the mortars, their MGs like foot MGs. They are more effective against buildings than mortars, while mortars are better against woods. 75mm HE and up is sufficient against any target you can see.

FOs are only necessary against large enemy infantry groups inside bodies of woods too large to see clear through with direct fire heavy weapons or tanks. Particularly when you don't have pioneers and the enemy has any appreciable number of SMGs, you do not want to fight in woods interiors against unbroken men, with just rifles.

Instead, drop 105mm or still better 150mm HE on their heads, for a minute and a half, before making the move into their cover. Do not waste arty ammo early, that just gives the enemy time to rally from its effects. Every barrage should be followed up by infantry in 1-2 minutes.

If you lack heavy FOs and must take such a position, try to break as many of the defenders at the near treeline as possible. Then push one platoon to the near edge and hold there, shooting it out with anyone left in range. By not entering far, positions that can shoot you can still be seen by your overwatching heavy weapons or tanks.

The next platoon should enter at a different angle, while the first remains stationary ready to fire if the enemy moves to re-establish LOS. Then you use the short advance, differential LOS, and flanking tactics. Two platoons are much more likely to do the job than one.

I hope this is useful.

***

The other change I looked at (eagerly) was cover panic issues. Infantry behavior under fire in the open is noticably improved.

When shot just after leaving cover they will drop and sneak back to it, but I've also seen them use "advance" instead when sneak was too slow for the distance. Farther from cover they go to ground and sit at first. When shot repeatedly they can still "cover panic". But it seems to happen deeper in the morale slide and makes more sense (e.g. shot at again while already at pinned, or after a brief actual "panic").

I have an old small "testbed" scenario for infantry open ground tactics vs. a lone HMG in a trench about 250m away, and tried it out with v103. With an overwatch force of 2 HMGs and a sharpshooter, previously a well led (+2 morale and command, +1 others) regular Russian 1943 platoon was able to assault the MG, with modest trouble and losses.

This means short advances, taking turns, getting close enough to ID the trench, MG area fire on the trench, get closer for a full ID, cover fire once that is available as half move to grenade range, etc. An elaborate "drill", not just a group move order and watching what happens.

They did it without casualties this time. I tried it with the right tactics again, but greens with a leader with only +1 bonus (in all but stealth), with one green sharpshooter as the only overwatch. They lost 1 man and took out the MG. 1 of the 6 kills was by the sharpshooter.

A single squad cover panicked to the rear on "advance" and went far enough back to avoid later fire. I halted him and used "move" to get him back in the fight without tiring him out. He was a little late but back in it by the end. Another that was at the time closest (100m) went through the pinned-stationary, pinned shot again, brief panic, sideways sneak routine. This was the squad that lost a man. I halted him and told him to fire back instead, and he did. The other two squads got "on line" to help him, drawing fire in the process and taking the heat off of him.

The HMG did not visibly duck under the sharpshooter fire, as often happens with regulars. But he fired 5 shots after full ID was achieved and had a kill at the end. I would guess he contributed significantly to the suppression of the MG. Most of that came from squad fire at 100m, though. That put the HMG heads-down. The bulk of the platoon then closed to scattered trees within grenade range of the trench and rapidly finished the job.

Part 2:

I am happy to get the plug for previous articles I've written on this subject. But the thumbnail versions of them being provided here as advice are not correct. They oversimplify a much more involved story. Applied as stated they will not solve the problem. Which they have not correctly diagnosed.

You cannot avoid being shot at when conducting an infantry assault. The idea that smoke is supposed to mask every shooter, or cover fire is supposed to break every shooter, for an advance to succeed, is unsound. You can't keep smoke up for that long. You can't suppress defending heavy weapons so far away they are only sound contacts. Infantry fire in particular cannot suppress defenders in good cover beyond about 200 yards. And HMGs in good concealment terrain will not be "resolved" to full IDs until the nearest unit is about that close. Trenches will be spotted only at around 175 yards. Area fire at mere sound contacts is too expensive with anything but direct fire HE or your own high ammo MGs - squads can't afford to burn their ammo that way.

Attacking infantry is going to be shot at. That fire will pin units. You will get shot in the open, squads will get caught in the open, some will go on "cover panic" aka sideways sneaking. A successful infantry attack is not based on magic ways of avoiding these incidents. It is based on preventing them from stopping the overall attack, even when they occur.

The elements of a successful infantry attack include (1) some overwatch (2) numbers (3) time. Cover helps but is not essential. Of the three, time is the most critical. Infantry can even provide its own overwatch if there are enough numbers *and* enough time.

Most unsuccessful attacks come from pushing the pace too hard, thrusting men into the defender's fire zones beyond the point they are able and willing to stand. The attackers then "come apart". Only a few get far into the defender's fire zone, those are outshot, the rest pin at the edge of it, or scatter along the route. The single most important thing to prevent this is not cover fire or smoke, it is to not press the men harder than they are willing to go.

The actual moves are from cover to cover, using even marginal forms of cover like shellholes, brush, wheat, rocky patches, hedges and fences. (Dead ground behind hills or forests is also used, obviously). The moves are all made using "advance", and are short - 100m or less to the next waypoint, sometimes only 40-50m. If there is no cover at all, stop after 80-100m even in open ground.

Do not move everyone in a given platoon at the same time, unless the fire you are facing is particularly light. Half the platoon steps out at once, typically - sometimes only a single squad. Command delays and pauses stagger the movement times. A typical platoon advance would consist of giving 2 squads advance orders, the rest advance orders padded with delays to begin just at the start of the following turn. During the command delay period nobody is moving. Then the first two are. Then at the start of the next minute, those have halted (or are about to) and the rest move out.

The overall pace achieved this way can be as slow as 25 yards per minute. It rarely exceeds 50 yards per minute once any fire has been taken. The overall movement is *not* everybody gets up and moves, nor a third get up and move while the other two thirds sit at the start line firing. Instead, thirds or quarters are moving at any given moment, but all are "caterpillaring" forward, each moving in succession at some point.

What does this staggered form of "advance" accomplish? It means the entire formation is not exposed and moving at once. When the enemy opens up for the first time, he hits a few squads, only. Significant portions of the force are halted in cover at any given moment. Others aren't in cover but aren't moving either. And the range to each unit in the force is changing. No one unit is always the closest.

This spreads enemy fire over the entire force. it gives units shot at time to rally. A unit that is pinned halts, others then advance past it. Since they are moving and closer and it is farther and stationary, defending fire shifts away from the pinned unit. It can then rally.

When a unit hits yellow morale it can continue its movement only for a short distance to reach cover. If a unit has reached "pinned" it is halted and remains absolutely stationary, cover be darned. If a unit begins sneaking sideways looking for cover, its movement order is voided. Units told to sit still fire back if and only if they have full IDs of enemies within good infantry range. Otherwise, if in any kind of concealment terrain (even steppe, wheat, or brush) they hide. The "job" of a stationary unit is to *rally*, not to get anywhere.

Rally power, not fire suppression, is what gets the whole formation closer to the enemy. Rally power is a per unit time kind of thing. Delaying the overall advance gives more time to rally through the defender's fire. This is apparently counterintuitive - the natural tendency is to think that minimizing the time of exposure is absolutely essential, and so to "race" the men across to the defenders. No. Don't "race".

The defenders do not have unlimited ammo. They cannot break an entire formation of attackers shooting at them at long range and into cover. Only a portion of the defending units have the range and ammo to hit you anyway - a few MGs, some light guns. MG fire at long range into the open pins, it does not kill. MG fire into cover at range just wastes ammo. Guns big enough to toss killing HE reveal themselves even at range when they fire. The lighter stuff, stuff that will remain a sound contact or can fire indirect (mortars), will pin but not kill.

Even extra minute the attack takes, the attackers as a whole rally, while the defender's ammo counters decline monotonically. If you do not compress the engagement into a short rush, if you slow down whenever and wherever units are hitting "pinned", the net effect is to accumulate good order attackers at the edge of the defender's lethal fire range. This gets you through the merely pinning fire. It is exasperating, tries your patience, involves micromanagement, and can feel helpless (because he is doing all the firing). But it works.

Because at the edge of that lethal envelope most of your infantry arrives, rallied, with full ammo. The defenders are lower on ammo. You started with odds. By holding the fire of more men until closer range, you accumulate the firepower differential you will need to overcome the defender's advantage in cover.

What is the role of overwatch in all of the above, and what is the overwatch force? Overwatch must deal with large caliber guns, stuff that does not just pin but kills. It must deal with armor and bunkers that can dish out fire endlessly without infantry being able to do anything effective in reply.

During the approach, that is all it needs to do. As soon as full IDs are made, however, replacing the mere sound contacts, overwatch has another role. Now it takes out these full IDs in sequence, one at a time. Doing so lessens the fire the advancing infantry will take. It won't end it, because generally there will be additional shooters farther back that are still just sound contacts.

At the same time, whole platoons of the attacking infantry nearest to a full ID stop moving and just fire back at it, for a minute or two. The attacking infantry does not need to move on top of the defenders. It just wants to get close enough for a full ID, and then into cover. Then it and the overwatch shoot the heck out of the IDed units. Only after that does the advance resume in that area - while it is continuing elsewhere, throughout.

What units perform the overwatch role? Is it a third of or your squad infantry, or two thirds? No. It is all your towed guns, your FOs, your on map mortars, your sharpshooters, your HMG teams, and your tanks. Mortars are particularly useful against guns. FOs are used against multiple spotted enemies in bodies of woods. Tanks and on map guns are used against buildings, bunkers, and trenches - as well as armor, their first priority. MGs maintain pins on units hit by the other stuff, and prevent rally by shooting at anyone who gets up to run. Sharpshooters pin guns and MGs.

Do *not* panic just because you are taking fire, and shoot off all your overwatch ammo and FOs at mere sound contacts. Do not call down smoke everywhere thinking you can avoid all fire - your overwatch in fact wants to see things, to take them out. Do *not* rush the forward infantry to cover to "get them out of the open" ASAP, pushing them into the defense so hard they "come apart".

Infantry shows its power by rallying through long range fire and closing inexorably anyway. It presents the defenders with a "fire discipline" dilemma. Fire at long range and you can slow us, but we will just slow down and rally and you can't keep it up all day. Hold your fire until the range is short enough to hurt us, on the other hand, and we will get full IDs and call down overwatch hell on you, or get into nearby cover and just shoot it out.

A properly conducted infantry attack looks like a mess 3-5 minutes in. It looks like a bit of order as a "crust", with debris here and there behind and in a few places at the leading edge, 5-10 minutes in. Then men accumulate in cover near the defenders and rally (perhaps punctuated by a defending arty blow that forces then back here or there).

At the halfway point of the fight, the defenders are losing shooters. Some MGs have jammed, some are low on ammo, the nearest and some of the guns have been KOed by the overwatch, the attacking infantry has reached cover nearby and massed anyway, despite all the ranged fire they have already absorbed. Full IDs have accumulated and the defenders are basically located. The remaining defenders are on shortened covered arcs to avoid showing themselves to attacker firepower and to conserve ammo, or they have shifted positions to avoid LOS entirely. At that point, movement in the attacker's backfield suddenly becomes easy, and ground it took 10 minutes to cross early on can be crossed using "move" in 2 minutes.

There is a lot more to it than a group select "run" order as in CMBO. And it is a lot more involved that just "use cover fire first".

You can't afford to use mortars to suppress mere squad infantry. The mortars' number one mission is to KO - not suppress, but wipe out or rout the crew of - gun emplacements. Their second mission is to break or pin fully IDed heavy machinegun positions, particularly ones in woods terrain. They don't do buildings and they don't do trenches (with one exception, next). They also are needed against heavy weapons just behind crest lines, in places flat trajectory weapons just can't hit (round hits ridge in front, or sails clean over).

Incidentally, snipers have about the same mission, though they also go for tank commanders, FOs if you ever see any, and infantry AT teams (bazookas, schrecks, etc).

The Russians can use their 50mms, in pairs, for a bit more than this, because they have so much ammo. They don't hit very hard, though, so they typically have to fire with two of them and often for 2-3 minutes at the really important targets. The "real" mortars - 81s, Russian 82s, Commonwealth 3 inch - have to fire for just a single minute, at just the targets indicated above, with just a single mortar for each target. One minute of 81mm fire typically gets 2-3 hits close to the target, with the rest missing long or short. That will usually kill a man and pin the target, sometimes breaking it. You do not need the mortar to wipe them out to a man.

The purpose of the HMGs is first, to prevent redeployments in the open; second, to cut up broken units that try to run, turning a momentary break into a "routed, exhausted" scattered to the winds kind of thing; and third, to *maintain pins* achieved by other overwatch stuff. That is, the turn after the 81mm works over an MG, put an HMG on that target. The MG fire alone wouldn't pin them, not at range and into good cover. But 6 shots in a turn will add extra pain about as fast as an already cowering unit can rally. In effect, they won't rally unless they can first break contact, or get the MG off. MGs have 15-20 minutes of fire. They can keep this stuff up. So can tank MGs, from the full tanks anyway (SP guns often have little ammo for this).

For other targets you want high ammo direct HE, or FOs. FOs are for full platoons in woods cover, and for reaching just past a crest line. Direct HE means tanks, cheaper HE chucker vehicles if you can afford any, and towed guns (Russian 76mm, German infantry guns, PAK doing double duty, the better types of light AA).

When you encounter squad infantry, it is either close enough for a full ID or it isn't. If it isn't, don't throw away your ammo area firing at a sound contact. Just take the pain, halt the unit shot at, and use short advance and hides with the rest. At range that long, squad infantry doesn't have enough ammo to kill you. The 2 LMG types have decent FP out to medium range. But only 25-35 shots. The 1 LMG and rifle types are the best at this, with 40-50 shots and decent FP. But "decent" is still less than 50 at 250 yards. That'll pin people and maybe get 1 guy in a minute of fire. It won't kill a whole company.

If they are close enough for a full ID they are close enough to hurt you. But you are also close enough to fire back, at least if you have the standard rifle and LMG infantry. Halt the entire platoon fired at. Target the nearest full ID with the entire platoon, for 1 minute. You will suppress him. If his cover isn't great you will break him.

This is important. You cannot afford to burn ammo pushing several units to "cautious", because they will snap back from that in 30 seconds. Instead you want to overload a unit per platoon per minute. Hard. Yes you will continue to take fire from the rest. So be it. But in 2-3 minutes of pause, you will significantly weaken the defenders, and not just temporarily. Put an MG (overwatch or vehicle) on a unit hit last turn. (Preventing rapid rally again). If you don't have enough of those, put one rifle squad on him, one of the ones farther away.

The guns or tanks also target the full IDs. They don't fire at sound contacts, unless you have a lot of ammo to work with and limits covered areas to deal with. (E.g. a T-34 platoon typically sports 200 rounds of 76mm HE. Plus some canister. It can afford to toss some at the nearest treeline before the scouts go in - even just for recon by fire).

A minute of 75-76mm HE fire, direct, is usually enough to pin or break a single target. Switch to another target with HE the following turn. If you don't have other targets, switch to MG fire on the already suppressed guys to keep them down, while preserving your HE for targets that can fire. (An exception is a gun - then fire HE until you see it abandoned. It can hurt a tank and you don't want to play games with that).

Don't think in terms of allocating the ammo over the minutes of the battle, as though it is constantly needed just to keep enemy fire moderate. Instead, think in terms of allocating that ammo over the *defenders*. You want a high enough dose at each of those to break it. You don't need tons more than that. Pin maintenance goes to the high ammo MGs, or in a pinch the relatively high ammo rifle squads. Mop up of units already pinned or broken goes to close range infantry fire.

What the precision overwatch HE weapons (mortars, towed guns, tanks) are needed for most of all is to rapidly take out the most powerful defending heavy weapons, the things that can shoot down a whole platoon in a short period of time. The guns, the tanks. When you have IDs they also silence the HMGs - but that can take a while because range can leave them a sound contact for quite some time.

Again, you have to pass through that part of the range envelope with just "rally power". You won't silence mere sound contacts, not all of them, and it usually isn't worth the ammo to try (exceptions for hundreds of rounds of HE and limits target locations, etc). An advance doesn't need to prevent any shots from being taken at you to succeed.

The stuff that remains stealthy is low caliber stuff at long range. And only a portion of it can keep firing - the high ammo stuff (rather than squad infantry). That is annoying and causes delay, but it won't shoot down your whole force. Spread around the pain it causes, and give your men time to rally from its effects. Work closer. When you get into full ID range you start hurting them back.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by jjelinek:

Below is from Jason C's Guide To Combat Mission Tactics.

[snips]

First just get the leading platoon of squad infantry close enough for a full ID of the shooting defenders, as opposed to sound contacts.

That's the hard bit!

Originally posted by jjelinek:

Once that close, get them into any available nearby cover and halt them. Do not attempt to close further. This should be 250-175 yards.

I think the original questioner was more interested in how you survive the approach to get to 250-175 yards.

As ISTR has been said in another thread, in real life, you try not to do stuff like that, but bypass and bombard.

All the best,

John.

[John D Salt]

Double post, dammit.

[junk2drive]

I agree with that! Many times I have played a scenario and thought to myself "in RL a commander would have called this off until support could take care of this"

Usually the designer puts something in the briefing to suggest that you don't have the time or support and you really need to take the objective at all cost. B company is depending on you to save them... blah blah.

I once read a spoiler after a loss to find that Rommel couldn't win the battle either and chose to go around the enemy.

[PLM]

i was playing a scenerio named Hedgehod 216.something (or 2 something.point something). There was some Brush and scattered trees but then there was 500 meter or so stretch of open ground. I had a few setbacks too as surprises. I had maybe 10 or so minutes with a time extension to take the Hill through barbed wire and entrenches enemy. I simply could not advance and my tanks couldnt get tank superiority although his tanks were hidden and waiting to ambush mine so they werent going at my infantry. I would have much rather had 150mm arty support instead of the damn heavy rockets i got, you know how innacurate those are. i'll try these tactics out against the computer today

btw thanks for the interesting responses. you guys are fast :eek:

[ January 30, 2005, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: PLM ]

[Falcon988]

It's doable. I've made several attacks over relatively open ground and under some intense fire. You just have to keep your men moving but not too tightly packed together. When artillery comes, run your troops out of the area. Generally at long range your biggest enemy is machine gun fire and artillery so just keep your troops spread out. Use smoke when you get up close, and have your tanks blow up anything that is giving you a hard time.

ps. If you don't have tanks and he does, retreat.

[Tigrii]

As Falcon said, all you have to do to cross open ground against long range fire is spread out and keep moving. It's more important to keep spread out then to keep every single squad in command range. Use CHQs to plug dead zones between PHQs. If someone is getting tired or shaken, stop them and hide, even in open ground. The enemy will then probably retarget to moving troops while the other ones rally and rest. If you cycle like this you can move up without serious losses while the defender wastes lots of ammo. Long-range fire only shakes people, and isn't very damaging, and since you can easily stop and rally but they can't regenerate ammo by not shooting, you have the upper hand. Against artillery fire advance out of the target area with everyone inside. This is the exception to the stop shaken units rule. You will lose some aquads but remember they can't shoot forever. Against enemy tank superiority just run away screaming cause you're screwed.

[Alsatian]

During the move/advance over that much open ground, does anyone find a benefit by splicing in short distances of sneak?

Does it have the same effect as hiding in the way Tigrii just described?

I think it helps, so I do it, but I haven't tested it and I'm not positive.

[Bannon DC]

Also -- check the actual lay of the land. Even though the terrain is "open" you may find that you have a hill or some sort of fold in the land that lets you move through it with minimal observation from the enemy.

Also -- I'm not familiar with this scenario. Could be that it is not well designed. If it was on the original disk, I would rule that out. But, otherwise -- it could be that the designer didn't give you the tools for the job.

[PLM]

most of the reason i lost was the arrival of enemy t-34s. at the time i only had 3 stugs. and 3 platoons of t-34s show up, i totally didnt expect that. Was on the disk. i have CMBB special edition.

[Panzer Aufklarung]

You are correct. It is a nightmare - even when it's the Reds attacking the Wehrmacht. Except for the Imperial Japanese Army, got more officers killed by their own men than just about any other tactical situation in WWII. Much worse than die in place on defense.

Find every terrain fold and feature offering concealment in your IPB. Use your spotter(s) for smoke fire support on turn two and keep adjusting ahead of your lead assault elements. Use all the smoke you can muster from support (even AFVs) weapons; use all craters and terrain features that offer any concealment (even if they don't offer much/any cover)as intermediate objectives/phase lines. Keep your armor, MGs and indirect fire weapons in overwatch; use lots of area fire for suppression; redirect area fire frequently.

Fire and maneuver; 1st platoon provides supressing area fire; 2d platoon advances to intermediate CLOSE objective; combine "Advance" with "Hide" order.

Don't pick the fight unless it is sufficiently balanced (at least 4:1 attacker: defender ratio)or with bonuses from the designer.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Alsatian:

During the move/advance over that much open ground, does anyone find a benefit by splicing in short distances of sneak?

Does it have the same effect as hiding in the way Tigrii just described?

I think it helps, so I do it, but I haven't tested it and I'm not positive.

Two reasons not do do this:

Sneaking is exhausting. You might want to rest your men while hiding. Worn out troops don't advance. They even break and surrender more easily.

From my experience sneaking is not as good as hiding when it comes to concealment.

Gruß

Joachim