Is shoot and scoot historical?

[DavidFields]

Is shoot and scoot based on widespread armor doctrine, or is it mostly a game-play convenience? The tactic of coming forward, shooting, scooting (thus breaking enemy spotting), repeat, repeat: it would seem that this relies a bit on Borg spotting (to know exactly where to break cover) and a game engine quirk with spotting (I would think that if an enemy unit saw you back into some woods they would zero in on that area to acquire you quickly in the case that you returned) to the advantage of the attacker.

It is a friendly question--I enjoy CM a lot.

[RSColonel_131st]

Mix of both, I guess.

AFAIK there's a real life equivalent (actually mentioned in a tank sim I used to play) where a tank will go from turret-down to hull down position and back to get off a few shots and retreat into cover. With the TC peeking out from the top of the turret, this means you still have some spotting ability from out of cover.

OTOH, you are correct in that the preciseness with which this manouver can be done in CMBB (and not just with vertical elevation, but also around corners) is a result of the game engine and "borg spotting".

[MikeyD]

You could look at it in the opposite direction -- How historical would it be for a tank to come face-to-face with ovewhelming odds and just sit there and slug it out? 'Shoot & Scoot' can be abused like pretty well any other command, but without it (aka CMBO) fighting with tanks becomes downright suicidal!

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Rankorian:

The tactic of coming forward, shooting, scooting (thus breaking enemy spotting), repeat, repeat: it would seem that this relies a bit on Borg spotting (to know exactly where to break cover)...

Not necessarily. If the AFV is parked in turret defilade so that the TC can still see, he does his own spotting.

Actually, I think it will do better once borg spotting is eliminated. As it is, as soon as your AFV swings into view, every enemy with an LOS starts shooting at you. Depending on terrain and how many bogies there are, you may receive four or five shots for every one you make. Not a good exchange rate.

...and a game engine quirk with spotting (I would think that if an enemy unit saw you back into some woods they would zero in on that area to acquire you quickly in the case that you returned)...

The answer to which is not to reappear in the same place over and over, something the real life troopers tried to avoid. Shoot & scoot in real life was practiced much more like the name implies. The actual procedure would vary considerably depending on circumstances, but typically might look like this:

A platoon of TDs is concealed in some sort of cover. Enemy AFVs come along. When the ambush is sprung, the platoon opens fire, perhaps after advancing into the forward edge of the cover so as to get better fields of fire. After firing a few shots, they'd pop smoke and pull back into cover. Then they would shift to their next ambush position which might be hundreds of yards or even miles away. Naturally they would have chosen their ambush position so as to have a covered escape route. They wouldn't stick around because even if they didn't get whacked by return AP fire, in a few minutes the artillery would be arriving followed a little later by infantry combing the woods for survivors to do unpleasant things to.

They might leapfrog with a second or even a third platoon engaged in the same kinds of labors. It would pull its own ambush further delaying the enemy while the first platoon established a new ambush position. This would get repeated as often as possible and necessary.

The point is to delay and attrite the enemy, not fight a decisive knock-down-drag-out slugfest with him. Wear him down and wear him out while division or corps rounds up a reserve/reaction force capable of dealing a decisive blow against him.

Michael

[ February 03, 2004, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[MikeyD]

There are many anecdotes from the Western Front about a single well camou'd Panther or Tiger rolling out from behind a house, letting loose with a couple shots then quickly retreating out of sight. Oftentimes the Panther's concern was less with the armor that was facing them and more with the chance that an artillery FO would start dropping 105mm shells on them if they stuck around too long. Tactically, Shoot & Scoot would have much the same effect as sitting out in the open. Allied troops would know there was a Panther 'out there somewhere' and its presence would deny the Allies with freedom to maneuver whether it was seen or not.

[DavidFields]

Thank you for the detailed answers.

My impression, perhaps unjustified, is that the Russians would be less adept at these subtle armor tactics. True?

Your description, Michael Emrys, of the "rolling ambush" reminded me of the tank scene in Clancy's Red Storm Rising (I think his best book) where a line of West German tanks fire at the East Bloc invaders, then pulls back to prepared defense line, and repeats. I did not realize that the small unit tank tactics were so well developed in WWII.

Indeed, I will now incorporate the tactic in my CM play. The idea of the enemy being very wary about a piece of terrain I have already vacated is very appealing. (If presented with the appropriate geography).

[V]

I seem to remember a shoot and scoot type situation mentioned in "Seven Roads to Hell" where an American tank would be positioned behind a house and creep out to take a shot or two, then reverse back to cover.

It's been a couple years since I read that book, so I could be mistaken.

[stikkypixie]

Originally posted by Rankorian:

Thank you for the detailed answers.

My impression, perhaps unjustified, is that the Russians would be less adept at these subtle armor tactics. True?

Your description, Michael Emrys, of the "rolling ambush" reminded me of the tank scene in Clancy's Red Storm Rising (I think his best book) where a line of West German tanks fire at the East Bloc invaders, then pulls back to prepared defense line, and repeats. I did not realize that the small unit tank tactics were so well developed in WWII.

Indeed, I will now incorporate the tactic in my CM play. The idea of the enemy being very wary about a piece of terrain I have already vacated is very appealing. (If presented with the appropriate geography).

If i remember correctly the russians did use these ambust tactics in the defense of moscow. They had prepared many ambushes, making it look like there were more tanks fighting the germans.

Could be wrong, but some grog will correct, no doubt about that!

[MikeyD]

"My impression, perhaps unjustified, is that the Russians would be less adept at these subtle armor tactics. True?"

'Shoot & Scoot' would be an indication of the level of training a tank crew recieved. The only reason not to do it would be if you were too dumb to know you could! In the Western Front memoir "Death Traps" the author talks about running out of trained U.S. tank crews and having to throw in green infantrymen fresh off the boat as cannon fodder... just 3 to a tank! Not only would these guys not know enough to 'Shoot & Scoot', they probably couldn't even 'Shoot'!

So when things got hot it wouldn't just be the Russians who had to throw sublty out the window.

[M1A1TC]

The tank that stays and fights from one battle position will die very quickly. From my own military experience and its also US ARMY doctrine.

A tank will usually have alternate battle position AND a back up position. By going hull down , letting off 2 shots, going back to turret down, displace, repeat- My tank crew and a platoon of Bradleys destroyed a small taskforce. IT WORKS

[V]

Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

My tank crew and a platoon of Bradleys destroyed a small taskforce. IT WORKS

In Iraq?