Hull Down decisions

[GreenAsJade]

So - you have a tank with a thinner turret than hull.

How do you decide whether it's better do be hull down, because of the reduced chance to hit, or better to be all up because of the better chance that the incoming shot will hit thicker armour?

(I probably asked this before, but couldn't find it ... I guess it's a good question that could do with re-airing anyhow )

[dieseltaylor]

Hull down if your turret armour is better or equal. Bear in mind slopier is better than thicker : ) - all other things considered.

The famous MarkIV was all about stopping your natural inclination to provide a smaller target. I suppose when fighting against Allied tanks that will penetrate wherever they hit you may aswell be hulldown to lessen the chance of the hit. If they cannot penetrate the hull armour sit on a ridge : )

[yacinator]

Like dieseltaylor said, even if the turret armor is thinner/has lesser slope it's still better to be in a hulldown position because it decreases hit probability. That's what I always do.

[GreenAsJade]

But if your turret is half the thickness of the hull, doubling (say) the chance of penetration, and being hull down only reduces the chance to hit 10%, then you're worse off hull down.

That's that calculation that I find I need a rule of thumb about. I have no general idea of how much being hull down reduces the chance to hit, nor how much a difference of say 20% thickness makes to the chance to penetrate.... it is no doubt all very complex, which is why a rule of thumb would be handy!

So far we have one rule of thumb from diesel: stay hull up if the hull is thicker.

Anyone else?

[imported_no_one]

It depends on situation,namely distance.If you were refering to the PzIV,I would try and duel at range,say 1000m,and hull-up.That way even if your overal chance to be hit goes up,it would be negated by the lesser chance to be hit at all over distance.

When it comes to the PzIV,regardless of distance,or hull-up/hull-down,it often comes down to simply being the first to score a hit anyhow.And with the better gun and long range optics that is what I'd go for.

[Leopard_2]

Erm... if hull up / hull down would make any difference in the probability of a turret hit, I would say the game engine were broken. Having the hull in sight shouldn't do zilch to the probability of having the turret hit.

And since the manual goes rambling about the highly physical game engine, I'd hull down.

[GreenAsJade]

My understanding of how it works:

Hull up/hull down makes a difference to the overall probability of a hit.

Once a hit is determined, it is randomly allocated to the available surfaces.

Therefore, hullup/hulldown does affect the probability of a turret hit.

Hulldown, the probability of a turret hit is equal to the probability of a hit. This is somewhat small because the turret is a small target.

Hullup, the probability of a turret hit is equal to the probability of a hit (somewhat larger, because the tank is large) divided by how much of the available surfaces the turret comprises.

These will not give the same answer for a given distance from the attacker.

This is *** just how I ** understand it to work. Someone might know better...

[Leopard_2]

As I said - if the game engine isn't broken, the chance of a turret hit should be the same in either case. Hull-down should actually have a bit of a smaller chance yet (turret-only is harder to spot / aim / reaquire when moving etc.).

[Soddball]

Hull-down does make the tank harder to spot and hit, but turret size is not modelled.

This means, therefore, that if your Panzer IVJ is facing off against a Sherman 75 at 1km, you are better off being hull up. This is because even though your tank is harder to hit hull-down, every hit will hit the turret and will penetrate (most likely knocking out the tank), whereas if you are hull up, hits may strike the hull and will not penetrate.

Turret size modelling has been a bit of a bugbear, particularly since many players feel that the Panzer IV is made significantly weaker by this, since its turret armour is so thin. The turret's tiny, though, and should be a real bugger to hit.

[Leopard_2]

Hull-down does make the tank harder to spot and hit, but turret size is not modelled.

Thanks for pointing that out. Knowing about nooks and crannies like these helps to avoid nasty surprises when you are just playing a game "realistically".

[Soddball]

Sloping turret armour is also particularly valuable. Try putting the M3 Grant/Lee hull-down in 1942 against Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs. The turret armour is sloped at (IIRC) 45 degrees and is pretty much impenetrable, whereas the 37mm gun can easily knock out the lightly armoured early P-IVs and can also distress the P-IIIs.

[Dschugaschwili]

Threads on this topic:

PzIV tactics (mostly pages 3-5)

Turret hits and the poor ole PzIV

In short, if your upper hull armor is vulnerable to the enemy unit, you go hull-down. If your lower hull armor is your only vulnerable plate, you also go hull-down. Otherwise you do not.

Dschugaschwili

[Macphail]

interesting thread, but i think i have another view on all this. there was some talk in another thread about hull down positions, and the menu command for seeking such. i have really had no luck at all with letting my tanks get into a pissing match with other tanks, so i think i dont want to leave my tanks in ANY kind of position that exposes them to enemy fire! hull up, or down! i think part of the problem here is that it can be hard to determine exactly what position you are really in, due to the nature of the game graphics...what you see may not be what it really is (terrain wise). so, it may look like you are hull down, but really you are exposing the hull. anyway, i just think leaving a tank to shoot it out, is a bad call, and will lead to trouble. but, if you have no choice, half exposed, is better than fully exposed. statisticly obvious i suppose.

[GreenAsJade]

Actually the fact that it's not statistically (or any other way) obvious was the whole point of this thread!

[Grimthane]

I'm with Dschugaschwili on this one, so my PzIVs prefer to go hull up in a shootout. Having said that, getting the first hit is usually crucial, so if you are at any sort of range you may do well to sneak out of defilade and get a shot or two off before he spots you rather than zoom onto the ridge and blast away!

Note that the tests CombinedArms ran suggest that at 500m it doesn't matter whether you're hull down or not, as you tend to get hull penetrations from vanilla Shermans, but even here you were no worse off going hull up.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Soddball:

This is because even though your tank is harder to hit hull-down, every hit will hit the turret

No, a hull-down tank's upper hull can still be hit.