Tank hunter teams, effective?

[FM Paul Heinrik]

How do you use them to your advantage?

I've tried using them as a screen, but they get whacked by probing inf. I've tried using them in reserve and bring them to area of need but once contact is made it is hard for them to get into the fight. Only success I've had is in the occasional lucky ambush role when the opponent advanced armor without infanty support through confined spaces. Besides that tank hunter teams seem to die rather easily for me and do no damage just a waste of 11 pts. Lately, I just use them as suicide recon teams.

Do you play with tank hunters or just use 'zook/pz'faust troops instead.

[YankeeDog]

Depends a lot on terrain and conditions, and also enemy force balance.

Type of TH team also really matters. You can deploy late war German teams with Pz-100s almost like you do 'shrecks because they can reach out to 70m or more. Early war Russian teams with nothing but molotovs are no better than regular infantry half-squads at assaulting armor. As such, I often use these Russian TH teams in other roles.

I almost never use THs as suicide scouts, though. I find their stealth ability very useful -- often I'll sneak a TH team forward through marginal cover that wouldn't hide a larger unit. In particular, I remember playing the June, 1941 Blitzkrieg operation on the CMBB CD and managing to sneak German TH team forward into patch of brush barely 100m from the enemy MLR. He was never spotted, and his forward position allowed me to quickly spot enemy MGs and ATGs as they opened up so I could smother them with HE.

Of course, Sharpshooters are probably even better for this forward OP role, but you don't always have a Sharpshooter handy. TH teams can also be used to boost the close-range firepower of a squad or platoon. This is especially handy if your infantry is mostly plain rifle squads with few SMGs. A single Russian TH team boosts your close-range fp by 100 points at 40m.

As far as actually using your TH teams against armor, this inevitably involves some luck. What makes them attractive is the potential huge payoff; a single 11 pt. TH unit can KO a tank worth over 100 pts. or more. So if you buy 3-4 TH units in a QB, and only one scores a kill, in aggregate the 44 pts. of THs you bought still did pretty darn well.

In QBs, most opponents will buy enough infantry to effectively screen in front of advancing armor. But there are many scenarios that feature an armor-strong, but infantry-weak attacking force. In this case, TH teams and IAT in general become much more effective.

In cases where the enemy has plenty of infantry in front, then, you have to do something to strip the infantry off the tanks if you expect to have any luck with IAT team -- Arty is usually most effective for this role, though MGs can also be good. For more info on this, look for a post JasonC did on "The Infantry-HE Defense." -- I think it may have originally been posted on the CMBO forum. Briefly, the idea is that you go really light on Anti-Armor assets, and spend your points on infantry and HE. Once you've killed or broken his infantry with the HE and MGs, your opponent is faced with the choice of either (1) calling off the attack, or (2) pushing forward with armor alone, which of course makes the armor quite vulnerable to ambush and flanking fire by other cheap AT assets, like TH teams, 'shrecks/zooks, smaller AT guns, and cheap tracked AT like Marders.

One time period where this defense is particularly effective is as Germans in 1941-42 against Russians. Russian infantry from this period is often very low quality, and so a couple of HMGs, or a some modest artillery fire can tie down an entire company. Russian players will often then try to lead with armor in order to relieve the pressure on their infantry and get the attack moving again. Early war Russian tanks w/o cupolas are also easier to sneak up on. I've lost many a T-34 or KV-1 myself because I relied to much on it's superior armor (against enemy guns, anyway), only to watch as a panzerwurfmine or grenade bundle destroyed my precious uber tank. . .

As far as deploying TH teams specifically, in poor visibility and/or really dense terrain, there are sometimes way too many hiding locations for his infantry to effectively screen, and 2-man TH teams can hide in a lot of places that bigger infantry teams can't. Often, the trick is to pick a less obvious hiding place that your opponent doesn't fully clear, either because he overlooks it, or because he doesn't have enough time/units available. That is, rather than hiding them in the patch of woods next to the road which is an obvious armor ambush point, hide them in the patch of brush on the other side of the road -- the brush will hide a TH team just fine with a little help from poor visiblity as long as enemy infantry doesn't literally get right on top of it.

Cheers,

YD

[Joachim]

The trouble is that good cover is usually along good lines of advance for the enemy infantry.

They are best in urban areas. Hiding in the upper floor will often avoid contact with enemy scouts if your enemy is in a hurry.

Dense terrain with lots of cover will work. But don't try to hide near roads/passages the enemy will use. His scouts will probably scout exactly these areas. Stay away and slowly move in once the tanks arrive.

Little cover means the enemy scouts know where to search - for cover and for the enemy. Guess this is exactly your problem. Try to cover your THs with MG fire from further back, keeping the enemy inf away from your THs forcing the tanks to lead.

Gruß

Joachim

[Vixen]

I played a QB a couple of days ago as Russians in mid 43. The Germans had 3 tigers and other vehihles. The tigers were impervious to everything I had....till one strayed next to a TH team. Bye bye tiger. Funny thing though, Tiger crew bailed out and killed the TH team.

[Cannon-fodder]

For more information on just how rubbish tank hunters are as AT units, just look up the keywords 'useless', 'why?', 'pointless' and 'waste'. The problem is that they, for some reason, insist on chucking molotovs at the tanks before anything else. So there they are warming up a freezing Panzer crew, while it blasts them to smitherenes with HE.

however, as fire support, they are remarkably effective. Think of them as just under the power of half squads, but much more brittle. The trick is to keep three or more with a platoon, and then you have, at 40m, 300+ extra firepower, able to be deployed from better flanking/suppressing angles.

I played a QB a couple of days ago as Russians in mid 43. The Germans had 3 tigers and other vehihles. The tigers were impervious to everything I had....till one strayed next to a TH team. Bye bye tiger. Funny thing though, Tiger crew bailed out and killed the TH team.

Well, to this I would say that it is quite uncommon. To be honest, if your opponent is stupid enough to advance armor without an infantry screen, then he deserves it. TH can, of course, kill tanks at close range. But then, so can normal infantry squads, ATRs, and especially 'zooks etc.

So, THs are cheap, a definite advantage, but not that reliable as AT weapons. Use them, but don't expect massive AT capability.

[Tifosi]

TH teams, I have found, are at their best in urban scenarios. Hide them in an upper floor (try avoiding buildings the enemy is likely to want as an MG nest or sniper nest though), lie low while any infantry moves past and as the armour rattles by, WHAM!

Also find it useful to have them lurking near forest edges, in particular where armour really has to skirt the forest.

If defending, just behind the crest of a hill can be a good 'un, if you can protect them from enemy infantry with your own grunts. Then you can catch armour unawares as it crests the hill. This method is really only suitable when LOS conditions allow a lot of cover to your team, not possible on many maps.

As for open terrain, I generally try and find somewhere near the rear to try and hit any pushes by the enemy towards my rear. Trying to get them across open country can be way hard if the enemy is engaged. MG's will have them for breakfast.

I guess the point of this rambling is that I find TH teams are best used to ambush enemy armour.

However, as always there is no "correct" way to use them, and you will find different people have different ways of using the assets available to them.

Scott

P.S - Forget the Russian TH teams, they just lob little bottles that are so useless, one wonders if Ivan drank the contents before throwing...

[Other Means]

Originally posted by Tifosi:

P.S - Forget the Russian TH teams, they just lob little bottles that are so useless, one wonders if Ivan drank the contents before throwing...

very true. and seeing them do it made me want a sip.

as a supplement to all the above, i'd say in defense keep your TH teams in a tile of brush adjacent to the flags. you can generally keep the infantry away from the last couple of meters & have your opponent tank rush the flags in the last few turns. if you keep your TH's hidden until the tanks are right on top of them they can kill anything. use them as your very last resort, and don't attempt to move them. they can turn a defeat into a small victory.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Tifosi:

P.S - Forget the Russian TH teams, they just lob little bottles that are so useless, one wonders if Ivan drank the contents before throwing...

Hmmm. No offense but this is why you have to be really careful what you're reading here.

Russian TH teams begin to receive RPGs in June '43. The RPG is likely the most effective TH weapon in the game.

I'm not going to post some long thing about Tank Hunters again aside from that note. There are a lot of great posts on this if you run a search.

[Tifosi]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Nacht:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tifosi:

P.S - Forget the Russian TH teams, they just lob little bottles that are so useless, one wonders if Ivan drank the contents before throwing...

Hmmm. No offense but this is why you have to be really careful what you're reading here.

Russian TH teams begin to receive RPGs in June '43. The RPG is likely the most effective TH weapon in the game.

I'm not going to post some long thing about Tank Hunters again aside from that note. There are a lot of great posts on this if you run a search. </font>