jjhays Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 I need to go for now since it is midnite here in Baumholder. take care!!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felixgrey Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 The place I hated was NTC. It was a great fight, when you could make it too the fight. The Tanks they give you out there are beat down. It is good to have an OR rate of 60% for a fight. One of the tanks my troop drew was L0002 - the 2nd M1a1 off the factory floor - L0001 is in a museum and that one should have been too! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felixgrey Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 See ya JJ- midnight here also. Sleep sounds quite good. Take care all and remeber "Gunner, Sabot, Sniper is a waste of ammo" according to murphys laws of armor. Scott 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Again sorry, the rest of you can have the thread back. That'll teach ya to get a bunch of soldiers yappin. Nite all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallybob Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Why do we want the thread back? I was enjoying you young farts talking. M60-A3, M1-IP,M1-A1, M1A1HA dumb arsed tanker here. 1-32 Armor, 4-67 Armor, 3AD Friedberg Germany 86-90. REMF Reserves longer later. My favorite story was about a friend who was a great guy, just a tanking-challenged LT. His gunner gave him all the commands for TT-VIII on 3x5 cards. Said "Sir, if you touch anything, I'll have to hurt you". Going downrange, my friend was just crossing his arms, reading the cards. When he got to the PC and troops "Fire and adjust" engagement, he said faster than I could try "Gunner, Heat, PC, Fire and adjust, Troops, Caliber .50, On the way, stoppage, stoppage, Gunner, Coax, Troops, Target, Cease Fire. OMG It was So funny to hear on the jump radio net. They got a good score on that engagement, too! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matias Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Wow, I actually have a small contribution to make to this fascinating thread - I think a guy I knew from high school worked on that MPAT round. I don't remember the details but it was the fuse for an explosive round fired from some kind of gun that would explode when near helicopters. It was supposed to detonate based on detecting the electromagnatic pattern made by the whole helicopter (not just the blades). I remember him showing some (very primitive) 3D computer models of a HIND vs other helicopters and saying that it could actually distinguish the type of helicopter (friendly or not) by the electromagnetic signature! Sounded pretty cool at the time. Course thinking back on that he probably shouldn't have been sharing... Funny world ... now a girl we know in my church's choir (my wife sings in it too) is working on software for thoose smart micro bombs - JSDM I think? (Never was good with acronymns) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matias Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 <double post> [ March 01, 2003, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: Matias Duarte ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rosenrosen Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Oops, you guys are right (of course). I spent lots of time browsing that site and got mixed up on my ammo types. Or perhaps I was just looking for a reason to post that awesome shot of the helicopter getting whacked! Dr. Rosenrosen 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 WineCape, While I lack many of the references cited, notably the 1946 FM 17-12 Tank Gunnery which incorporates all the wartime lessons learned for tank and tank destroyer gunnery (outbid on E-Bay and welched on in promised copy arrangements by winner), I can help a bit. Please see BRAZEN CHARIOTS by Robert Crisp for British procedures and TANKS FOR THE MEMORIES and related material at www.tankbooks.com where you'll find many firsthand accounts from American tankers and TD types. Try PANZER COMMANDER by Von Lucke for the Germans, too. Lots of others exist, of course, but my brain's fried right now. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjhays Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 I don't remember the details but it was the fuse for an explosive round fired from some kind of gun that would explode when near helicopters. It was supposed to detonate based on detecting the electromagnatic pattern made by the whole helicopter (not just the blades). I remember him showing some (very primitive) 3D That is exactly how the MPAT works when switched to AIR. You just twisted the nose cone to either AIR or ground and then loaded it. The only MPAT I have seen is a trainning (dummy) round and they are rare as hell. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WineCape Posted March 1, 2003 Author Share Posted March 1, 2003 By all means gents, DO carry on. Fascinating stuff. John + Dr. Rosenrosen, thanks for the info and the website. So a tank loader can lose an arm, finger or hand if he fiddles to much after the "up" command? :eek: [ March 01, 2003, 03:18 AM: Message edited by: WineCape ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 He can get killed if he doesn' get out of the way. There is about 4 feet from the end of the breech to the back of the turret. When the cannon goes off it goes all the way to within a few inches of the turret wall in the blink of an eye. It wouldn't even notice someone standing there, they would just be jelly on the back wall. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felixgrey Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 The TC has a couple of shields that he puts up to protect him from the main gun, but it is still real easy to get your elbow crushed by the gun when it goes off. The loader doesn't have any real protection b/c he needs the freedom of mobility to load rounds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjhays Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 When I have loaded in the past, when I arm the gun I stay glued to the left side of the turret till after the recoil. It is a rush!!! especially with the hatch open. Tank Table 12 is great, you just unload your whole ready rack in a matter of minutes on stationary and movers. My Stub base deflector broke once so I had to throw it on top of the turret. Every time we fired the stub base would clang around in the turret almost always hitting someone (not seriously though). Eventually used a heat mitten to bat the stub base down as it came flying out of the breech and avoiding gettting hit by the breech. Very dangerous but hey! we qualified. Also my fastest load time was 4.3 seconds for a HEAT (52lbs). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt CDAT Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 If memory serves all the loader has is a leg garde witch is part of the trap for the AVCAPs between the loader and TC station. There is also a arm with a pad that swings out in front of the loader(not sure about this, might be remembering the breast pad for the gunner to lean into). Other than that there is nothing inbetween the loader and the back of the breach. As far as the MPAT round goes, I was told about it(and saw the dummy round) during AIT back in 89 but ETSed in 94 and never saw a real one or trained for one as a gunner. I can also vouch for the story about the Lieutenant. As a gunner that is exactly what I would have done with some of the Lieutenant that I saw. I was never on the 1 (Lieutenant's) tank. I was always on the 3(wingman for platoon Sergeants tank) tank. [ March 01, 2003, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Sgt CDAT ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjhays Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 The loader has a seat of course and a shoulder pad that swings out so he wont fall into the breach. Yes leg guards and a imaginary line that they draw. Beyond that line is death and maiming. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76mm Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Dear jjhays: I used to be in 2nd Bde, 1st AD from '88 to '91; we were in Erlangen. My old battalion was 1/35 Armor, is that unit still around? I think it was deactivated after we got back from the Gulf War. Also, one word on the DU rounds going through the berms in the Gulf--it is true that they did, but the berms (at least the ones I saw) were dug by dozer blades on the Iraqi tanks and were completely useless--a bit more than waist-high and about four feet across at the bottom tapering up at the top. About as effective as a picket fence against a DU round, but since the Iraqis built them on three sides around their tanks, the berms did help immobilize them! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjhays Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 B 1-35 2BCT, 1st AD is still here, Baumholder. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntEater Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Hi; I'm not a tanker at all, but a ex sailor, but I found this:http://panzerlexikon.de/hinter/schuss.htm article firing procedures for german tanks in WW2. Unfortunately, it is in german, but since you guys are all based in germany, this might not be so much of a problem. Anyway, it went like this (example situation): "Lets assume there is only one enemy tank ahead. The driver spots it and reports that to the TC. He also estimates the range. The TC spots the target as well and estimates the range himself, he takes the middle number from his and the gunner's estimate. The gunner takes aim and estimates range as well. The TC then takes the middle again from his middle estimate and the gunner's estimate. Then the TC orders the kind of ammo to be used and often orders the driver to take a special position (like the "Mahlzeiten" for a Tiger). The loader loads the round. The commander then gives the "time" (turret position like "12 O'Clock") of the target. The TC then gives the range estimate to the gunner, the gunner selects the sight mode and such. The TC also orders the degree of lead. The gunner takes aim, and shouts "fertig" if he's ready. The TC orders "Schuß!". Normal range firing procedures like "Gabel" or "Messer" (bracketing or taking two short shots to estimate range) follow. With an experienced crew, this is much shortened as the gunner often estimates the range himself, but that was the textbook procedure. Example: Driver: "T-34, 10 Uhr, 600" Commander estimates 700 m, middle 650 Gunner reports "550". Commander gives 600. Commander orders: "Panzer 39 (grenade type), 10 Uhr (dirction to target), 600 m, T-34, 2 Strich vorhalten (lead)!" Driver halts tank, gunner aims and reports "fertig" Commander "Schuß!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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