Biltong's Campaign Rules

[hobo]

I would like to thank everybody that contributed to the QB maps. They add as much to the fun of BCR as the actual BCR rules. Dont know what everyone else things, but my games seem to be much tougher using the custom maps. I hope to be able to repay everybody with maps of my own when my job/life situation settles down.

Regards,

Hobo

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Biltong:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scarhead:

...

Finished Kiev Outskirts yesterday ..

Great AAR's Acarhead

Any comments on the maps - what could be changed to make them more difficult/realistic/interesting etc. But e-mail me direct so as not to spoil it for the other guys </font>

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Biltong:

Just asked this question in another thread:

What would you like from a BCR/CMAK campaign? And specifically: Would you like to play from the Axis side again or from the Allied side?

What else?

As somebody alread said:

Desert as fox.

Italy as allies... but smiling albert would be nice, too.

Joachim

[Snowbart]

Must fight for Rommel!!

[Snowbart]

Biltong,

How would I go about upgrading my Inf Co. if I wanted to? Am I allowed to use Attached points rolled up to add to the original cost of these units to buy something better? If you are not allowed to use your attached points in this way, I don't see how it is possible to upgrade your units to something more expensive.

I rolled up 100 points for attached units. I bought a 251/1 @ 45pts(green). I know i could use the reamainding pts to upgrade current ATTACHED units, but could i spend them on upgrading my BATTLE GROUP? :confused:

[atiff]

The fickle nature of war.....

I'm up to battl #17, early August 1941 (having managed to roll a week off between battles in June, and three weeks off in July)

First, I succeed in an midday assault of a Soviet position with 10% casualties from the dice roll(total victory with only a handful of casualties on the field). Then the Soviets counterattack at dusk, and I lose 20% of my boys to random dice roll casualties. Oh well, kiss goodbye to all of my attached units to patch up the holes in my core force.

Win that one too, then have to Immediate Assault at night with 20% further casualties from dice roll (plus a few from the previous battle). So now I'm down to two squads per platoon in my core force, no attached units left, at least I still have my tanks.

Manage to survive with a Minor defeat, but lost a couple of squads in the battle, more men than any other battle to date (I think). I'm doing the postbattle stuff and notice my CO has one casualty (from the 20% casualty setting). Roll the dice and.... go from knocking-on-Veteran to Conscript, 420 favour to -50. Sigh.

Oh, and you guessed it, the Soviets counterattacked again at dawn, against my one-squad-left-per-platoon core force and only 100 points of other troops. It's a 1000 point game of which I only have about 700 left by the time I move all the "dead" squads off the map.

Oh well, at least I still have my tanks.

[atiff]

One other thing:

Biltong, could there be another way for a company commander to get XP? It is mighty hard to get XP from casualties (and seems unrealistic too). The CO's job is to run the battle; perhaps instead of XP for casualties the Company CO should get XP for the battle result (maybe give 1 XP for a Major or Totoal Victory)? This shows that the CO performed well in the battle through his commands, rather than his marksmanship.

Similarly, maybe the platoon HQ's should get XP for other things instead of causing casualties. Perhaps they could get 1 XP (total) for something like fulfilling all of the following: having their platoon cause X casualties overall, having less casualties on them than they caused, and having no squads broken. This simulates that their platoon has been in significant fighting, and the HQ pulled them through it OK.

[Sardaukar]

I think atiff's idea of having HQs to get exp from battle result is quite good one. It'd be easy to implement too.

Cheers,

M.S.

[DBaron]

Hello again. Since I had troubles getting BiltAid to run, I have gone the pencil and paper method. I am a little confused on task force buying and I want to double check on the provisional force size formula.

is it

Provisional Force size x (1 - casualty/Battle Type)

or is it

Provisional Force size x (1 - casualty)/Battle Type

Thanks in advance.

Edit: If there were to be a BCR for CMAK, I would like to play the axis side.

[ April 30, 2003, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: DBaron ]

[hobo]

I give company HQ's a 1/2 XP for Maj victory and 1 XP for total victory. I am thinking about averaging the platoons XPs for each battle and giving the result to the platoon HQ.

- Hobo

[j0ker]

hey, i can help w/ this one:

DBaron asks:

Hello again. Since I had troubles getting BiltAid to run, I have gone the pencil and paper method. I am a little confused on task force buying and I want to double check on the provisional force size formula.

I'm a little shaky on math equations (dammit Jim, i'm a designer, not a math geek) but i think your 2nd guess is correct: do the math on the right-hand side then multiply that number by the force size. at least that's what I do...

As far as special rules for the CO, i have no probs with how it already is: it forces me to place the CO where he can be most effective yet in a position of relative safety.

In a previous battle (it seems forever since my troops entered Kiev...) i had my CO overwatching from rubble on a hill and conducting range exercises w/ 81mm mortars... every once in a while when Ivan got too close he'd pull out his silver-plated Luger and pop off a couple rounds. I believe he received a couple exp. points that day.....

{Kiev Update} on the last battle, these damned bridges.... i'm still in the planning stages; my CO just keeps looking out the window of his HQ and cursing at the river... no troops deployed as of yet.

I've heard there's an updated map for Bridges of Blood, nicht?

and I'm almost certain there's a way to import all of my troops i took so long in purchasing, over to this new map... can anyone help here?

{/Kiev}

thanks, j0ker

[SuperSulo]

Originally posted by j0ker:

{Kiev Update} on the last battle, these damned bridges.... i'm still in the planning stages; my CO just keeps looking out the window of his HQ and cursing at the river... no troops deployed as of yet.

I've heard there's an updated map for Bridges of Blood, nicht?

and I'm almost certain there's a way to import all of my troops i took so long in purchasing, over to this new map... can anyone help here?

{/Kiev}

thanks, j0ker

Yes, there's a new version of that map, on my site (url in Biltong's sig ). Sadly, you can not import your troops into this new map...

[Biltong]

Originally posted by hobo:

I would like to thank everybody that contributed to the QB maps. They add as much to the fun of BCR as the actual BCR rules. Dont know what everyone else things, but my games seem to be much tougher using the custom maps. I hope to be able to repay everybody with maps of my own when my job/life situation settles down.

Regards,

Hobo

Good idea - get rid of your job, keep your life and make some maps

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Scarhead:

...Mail is on its way.

Joachim

Thanx Scarhead - Guys - got it - just been a bit hectic here the last couple of days - should get to answering some mails/posts tonight

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Snowbart:

Biltong,

How would I go about upgrading my Inf Co. if I wanted to? Am I allowed to use Attached points rolled up to add to the original cost of these units to buy something better? If you are not allowed to use your attached points in this way, I don't see how it is possible to upgrade your units to something more expensive.

I rolled up 100 points for attached units. I bought a 251/1 @ 45pts(green). I know i could use the reamainding pts to upgrade current ATTACHED units, but could i spend them on upgrading my BATTLE GROUP? :confused:

Hi Snowbart,

You can upgrade your battle group, but be very carefull that you don't go overboard. BCR will upgrade your Battle Group in any case as the years progress and within the historical framework. If you go overboard and give yourself some 'mighty' units you will throw out the ballance and end up with too easy & boring battles. As for which points to use: As long as you record the actual points you used to purchase your new Battle group, the normal calcs will take care of the rest.

To give you an idea - here's the Battle Group you get to command in Jan 42.

1 Fallschirmjager Company (German/Airborne) - Points: 510 - Regular - Experience: 20.

1 Platoon of 3 x Sturmgeschutz IIIB - Points: 244 - Regular - Experience: 15.

1 Platoon of 4 x Panzer IIIJ (Short) - Points: 306 - Regular - Experience: 10. "

1 Kubelwagen - Points: 22 - Regular - Experience: 17.

1 Truck - Points: (25) - Green - Experience: 8.

1 Truck - Points: (30) - Veteran - Experience: 37.

1 SPW 251/1 - Points: (57) - Regular - Experience: 11.

1 SPW 251/1 - Points: (67) - Veteran - Experience: 48.

You might prefer to stay with your Motorized Inf Company that bled with you through the long winter months!! In that case, decline the new command. But, you will still be rewarded: Your Motorized Inf Company has just received some transport:

1 Kubelwagen - Points: 22 - Regular - Experience: 17.

1 Truck - Points: (25) - Green - Experience: 8.

1 Truck - Points: (30) - Veteran - Experience: 37.

1 SPW 251/1 - Points: (57) - Regular - Experience: 11.

1 SPW 251/1 - Points: (67) - Veteran - Experience: 48.

Two Tank Hunter Teams have also been assigned permanently to your Company:

1 T/H - Points: 16 - Crack - Experience: 73

1 T/H - Points: 14 - Veteran - Experience: 25

Your armor is also replaced with:

1 Platoon of 3 x Sturmgeschutz IIIB - Points: 244 - Regular - Experience: 15.

1 Platoon of 4 x Panzer IIIJ (Short) - Points: 306 - Regular - Experience: 10.

[Biltong]

Hmm Double post

[ May 01, 2003, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by atiff:

The fickle nature of war.....

...Then the Soviets counterattack at dusk, and I lose 20% of my boys to random dice roll casualties. Oh well, kiss goodbye to all of my attached units to patch up the holes in my core force.

..., then have to Immediate Assault at night with 20% further casualties from dice roll ...

notice my CO has one casualty (from the 20% casualty setting). Roll the dice and.... go from knocking-on-Veteran to Conscript, 420 favour to -50. Sigh.

....the Soviets counterattacked again at dawn, against my one-squad-left-per-platoon core force ...

Oh well, at least I still have my tanks.

Yowzer!! Well - lets put it this way: You don't learn much from winning

Remember - in BCR running away & hiding is a very good & realistic tactic sometimes Rather lose some favor and keep your men & their exp alive.

[Biltong]

Originally posted by atiff:

One other thing:

Biltong, could there be another way for a company commander to get XP? It is mighty hard to get XP from casualties (and seems unrealistic too). The CO's job is to run the battle; perhaps instead of XP for casualties the Company CO should get XP for the battle result (maybe give 1 XP for a Major or Totoal Victory)? This shows that the CO performed well in the battle through his commands, rather than his marksmanship.

Similarly, maybe the platoon HQ's should get XP for other things instead of causing casualties. Perhaps they could get 1 XP (total) for something like fulfilling all of the following: having their platoon cause X casualties overall, having less casualties on them than they caused, and having no squads broken. This simulates that their platoon has been in significant fighting, and the HQ pulled them through it OK.

Some of the best ideas to come out of this board in a long time. Added to my list and will be implimented.

Thanx Atiff!!

[Biltong]

Originally posted by DBaron:

...Provisional Force size x (1 - casualty)/Battle Type

...

Hmmm - I see there's a difference between the Rule and the example.

Use your 2nd one - same as the Example: Purchase Points: 1000; Casualty: 20%; Battle Type: Assault

Provisional Force Size = 1000 * (1 - .2) / 1.72 = 465 (round up)

I've fixed the rules - it now reads:

Provisional Force Size =

Purchase Point Total * (1 - Casualty Percentage) / Battle Type Multiplier

Thanx for pointing it out

[atiff]

Originally posted by Biltong:

Yowzer!! Well - lets put it this way: You don't learn much from winning

Remember - in BCR running away & hiding is a very good & realistic tactic sometimes Rather lose some favor and keep your men & their exp alive.

Yep, I'm well aware of that! The fact I was losing boys through the casualty setting wasn't the problem; I was kinda getting sick of yeat another battle before normal replacements. And I had to try to make an effort in every battle, becuase (A) those were my orders and ( if I quit and get a big defeat the Soviets are much more likely to stage (another) counterattack!

Mainly, I was bummed to lose my CO and favour due to a dice roll which was only needed becuase of the casualty setting - the only reason my Company CO had a casualty was because I was playing with 20% losses. Personally, I prefer to think of him as temprorarily out of action, rather than dead, so he can come back at a later date.

Anyway, finally some good news, we beat back the Soviet counterattack with minimal losses and a Tactical Victory, and no orders to go into battle again, so have been reinforced again - looking much more healthy.

[Snowbart]

Thanks Biltong, I must say I'm looking forward to getting those Airborne troops in '42! :cool:

Based on our earlier conversation, I am adding 2 to my date rolls so I can move this thing along a little faster.

[SuperSulo]

I've always thought the 15 CASUALTIES rule was a bit too harsh, and most of all not fun (losing half your men including your CO on a die roll). I saw some numbers on a website, http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/statistics-losses-eastern.htm

Losses on the Eastern front

June 1941 25.000

July 1941 63.099

Aug 1941 46.066

Sep 1941 51.033

Oct 1941 41.099

Nov 1941 36.000

Dec 1941 40.198

Total 1941 302.495

And the Wehrmacht had 7200000 men in 1941. Sure, they weren't all on the eastern front, but say half of them were. That means the casualty rate was 8%. That would include battle casualties and frostbites. I just don't see how they could lose, with some bad dice rolls in the winter, 50% of the men between battles.

Also, as you notice from the numbers, the winter didn't explode the casualties. I really think this rule could use some altering. Not that it matter to me, I don't use it at all , but I really thing it's a bit off.

Disclaimer: I have no idea if those numbers are correct, or even if they only include "battle casualties" and not "weather casualties".

If you look at that link, looks like something really bad happend in jan 43:

Nov 1942 31.198

Dec 1942 78.759

Jan 1943 180.310

Feb 1943 68.330

[Joachim]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

I've always thought the 15 CASUALTIES rule was a bit too harsh, and most of all not fun (losing half your men including your CO on a die roll). I saw some numbers on a website, http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/statistics-losses-eastern.htm

Losses on the Eastern front

June 1941 25.000

July 1941 63.099

Aug 1941 46.066

Sep 1941 51.033

Oct 1941 41.099

Nov 1941 36.000

Dec 1941 40.198

Total 1941 302.495

And the Wehrmacht had 7200000 men in 1941. Sure, they weren't all on the eastern front, but say half of them were. That means the casualty rate was 8%. That would include battle casualties and frostbites. I just don't see how they could lose, with some bad dice rolls in the winter, 50% of the men between battles.

Also, as you notice from the numbers, the winter didn't explode the casualties. I really think this rule could use some altering. Not that it matter to me, I don't use it at all , but I really thing it's a bit off.

Are these numbers "killed" or casualties? Casualties should be much higher. IIRC there was one SS regiment who mustered a mere platoon when asked by FM Model to hold the line for a few more days. Front line units suffered much more. What BCR lacks, however, is that most of the wounded came back to their very outift after they recovered - keeping the coherence. If there is somehting to be done, I'd advocate that 1/2 to 1/3rd of the causalties are gone forever and the rest comes back. (Usually 3 wounded per dead, plus prisoners/MIA plus some that are disabled/eternal shell shock etc. Hey, I knew a TC who was popped out of his turret when his tank got a direct hit. He broke all of his limbs, but fought again later.)

Using a formula including a time lag when your guys come back would be a bit too much maths for most of the players (not me ), so I think the only way is to

a) reduce causalties by half,

some dice roll based on this, or

c) a dice roll before normal replacement that tells you that the wounded men of the last x battles return to their units. Their experience is reduced to either as it was when they left (heavy bookkeeping!), and you calculate the new exp with that, or it is 90% of what the squad has now.

Disclaimer: I have no idea if those numbers are correct, or even if they only include "battle casualties" and not "weather casualties".

If you look at that link, looks like something really bad happend in jan 43:

Nov 1942 31.198

Dec 1942 78.759

Jan 1943 180.310

Feb 1943 68.330

Well, I found something on that in another forum :cool:

Originally posted by Mussad al Sahaaf:

These figures are a lie. There wasn't a battle at Stalingrad. There is not even a city of Stalingrad. The Soviets came to the Wolga and were committing suicide on its shores. The 6th army is still in good fighting shape, they are as of now advancing straight towards to Siberia.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Biltong:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scarhead:

...Mail is on its way.

Joachim

Thanx Scarhead - Guys - got it - just been a bit hectic here the last couple of days - should get to answering some mails/posts tonight </font>

[Joachim]

bump.