Grog question on German military terminology

[Hans]

I understand that the Germans numbered their companies 1-12, etc.

If they had mixed sub-units* moving about, the US might have name them force 'able', 'baker' etc. Would the Germans have commonly called them by numbers, letters? Or as they did historically with the commanders name like kampgruppes?

*Platoon and company (-) sized

Thanks

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Hans:

I understand that the Germans numbered their companies 1-12, etc.

If they had mixed sub-units* moving about, the US might have name them force 'able', 'baker' etc. Would the Germans have commonly called them by numbers, letters? Or as they did historically with the commanders name like kampgruppes?

*Platoon and company (-) sized

Thanks

I'd go for either

a) the commander's name,

the core unit (if you have most of 2nd Co with some attached units and 2nd Co HQ is in charge, it will likely be "2nd Co takes the village. support comes from.... And the support is usually not mentioned)

c) any colour or any name made up on the spot. Only restriction is that the names have some relation. In late war, any "heroic" names (e.g. prominent generals of the past etc.: Blücher, Gneisenau) will do fine.

[Michael Dorosh]

Did the US really have names like that for company sized groups? I've never read anything like that.

The Germans were notorious for not doing things that the Allies did, too, so if the Allies did a thing - I don't know, crazy stuff like actually putting the soldier's name on his dogtags - it doesn't always follow that the Germans did it. In fact, they usually didn't.

[Thomas Goetz]

Just working from memory here, so this may not be 100% accurate. I belive the Germans alternated using Roman and Arabic numbers for formal unit designations - i.e.; the III Regiment of the 21st Panzer Division. Not sure how that translates into smaller units, but I do not think the Germans used letters for infantry designations. Unfortunately, my German OB references are in storage and unavailable at the moment.

The US useage would have been letters for companies (Dog, Easy, etc.) and numbers for platoons (1st, 2nd, etc.) As for the Germans using the name of a CO for a group, that usually applied at higher levels - US would have Combat Command B, while the Germans might have Kampfgruppe Schmidt.

Hope this helps.

[Andreas]

What sort of mixed sub-units? A company with an attached platoon? Or a company scraped together from various units in a desperate situation?

I believe the former would still be called by its normal designation, e.g. 3./GR357 for 3rd Coy Grenadierregiment 357. The latter would be an 'Alarmkompanie'.

The naming of KG by its commander's name I think would start from about battalion size formations upwards. The name would be the name of the commander of the HQ unit providing the staff. So KG Hühnersdorff was a formation in 6.PD during Wintergewitter, and Oberst Hühnersdorff was the commander of the Panzerregiment of 6.PD, around which the KG was built.

The alternation and the way formation names should be expressed works as follows, AFAIK - but no guarantees.

2. Zug

9. Kompanie (9./IR89)

II. Batallion (II./IR89)

Infanterieregiment 89 (IR89)

12. Infanteriedivision (12.ID)

II. Armeekorps (II.AK)*

16. Armee

Heeresgruppe Nord

* For some weird reason I fail to understand Korps between 45 and 49 units would be referred to as e.g. XXXXVIII. AK, instead of XLVIII.AK. I think.

Companies would be numbered from 1 to 14 in a regiment. 1-4 = I.BN; 6-8 = II. BN; 9-12 = III.BN, with 4, 8 and 12 being the heavy companies. 13. is AT, and 14. is IG. Later in the war, when regiments were reduced to two battalions, 9-12 would no longer be used, but 13 and 14 would not be renumbered.

I hope this is all correct, since I am working from memory.

[ May 15, 2003, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Andreas confirms the correct info, and my own questioning of the original poster. Are we really talking about company sized units here? Doesn't strike me as true at all.

Americans had Task Forces

Germans had Kampgruppen (Combat Groups)

Canadians and Brits had BlankForce (substitute the last name of the commander of the group for "Blank", ie Frankforce.

Generally used for battalion sized battle groups.

[ May 15, 2003, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Hans]

I will take that answer to be the original (and largest component) forms the name of the unit?

ie, for a unit designated to guard a convoy, defend a crossroads etc

consisting of 2 platoons of infantry, an armoured car section and the regimental gun section would be called after the 'home' of the infantry platoon.

ie 'detachment of 3 company' or '3 company detachment'?

In English this would be called a 'detachment' what would the German equivalent be?

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Andreas:

* For some weird reason I fail to understand Korps between 45 and 49 units would be referred to as e.g. XXXXVIII. AK, instead of XLVIII.AK. I think.

The weird reason dates back a few centuries. In Latin it is possible to number CM or DXXXX. Maybe that some Romans or some monks during the dark ages were unable to subtract? Or just because "judex non calculat" and the lawyers invented their own numbering system which attracted the military because it is more simple?

Gruß

Joachim

[Andreas]

Vielen Dank.

[SgtMuhammed]

I think a lot has to do with how permanent the group was intended to be or how much time there was to organize it. The German tendency was to just name groups after their commander if they were an adhoc grouping i.e. Kampfgruppe Peiper, or Gruppe Meyer, or Abteilung Schmidt.

More permanent or longer planned units tended to get numbers like Skorzeny's 150th Panzer Brigade.

So most likely the remains of a company of infantry commanded by Hauptman Ritter plussed up with a couple VG platoons and a tank would be Gruppe Ritter or Abteilung Ritter.

This isn't from any official source, just what I have noticed.

Note on American naming: A task force was usually battalion size or bigger while detachments of smaller than a battalion were called teams. Most of the time they were named after their commanders although they were sometimes named for locations or just given codewords (Team Cherry, Task Force Smith, Team Sword, etc.).

[ May 16, 2003, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: sgtgoody (esq) ]