How to deal with Tigers?

[jep]

My opponent usually takes about 1 infanry batallion and some too much Tigers and keeps them closely together (easily destroing anything they are able to see).

This tactic really doesn't take too much skill to use, but is very efective because defending soviet player is limited how much he can invest.

Is there any realistic ways to defeat assaulting axis player?

I have feeling that game balance sucks in quick-batles. German forces are totally superior (even infanry)when compared to soviet forces. Thus making it likely that axis player usually wins considering both axis and soviet players are equally experienced. Still, soviet player doesnt get any extra poist compared to axis (althoug this too is realistic).

[YankeeDog]

Quick battles have some inherent problems with balance unless you and your opponent come to some reasonable agreements in terms of force selection and/or time period and conditions. The other solution is to play scenarios.

As for how to Play against Tigers, the answer depends a lot on the specific time period and conditions. Tiger Is in late '42 and early '43 are extremely difficult unless ground conditions are bad and/or the terrain is tight.

By 1944, The Soviets have bigger guns and better ammo and it's easier to deal with the Tiger. It still helps to have tight terrain to make flanking easier, but this is not as critical as in 1942.

King Tigers are harder to deal with, but they still have their weaknesses. There is no one simple answer. In general, though, flanking and/or hitting from multiple angles is still your best bet.

Cheers,

YD

[SgtMuhammed]

You could wrap everything in plastic. Tiger's won't attack what they can't smell.

Seriously, about the only thing to do is to try to draw the Tigers in close. Find a reverse slope or heavy woods, anything that will keep them from having a long LOS.

[Tank Ace]

if u can smoke these tigers and get a TD to there flank or buy fighter bombers

[Code13]

I would say if he likes to keep them close together then a fighter-bomber would be ideal, a stick of bombs across them would make them worry.

[Monty's Double]

If he keeps his infantry close, strip it away with arty spotters, then use pioneers or tank hunters to take on the kitties (do you have access to Valentines with the 57mm gun? If so shoot and scoot them from the flanks). Or send him an email telling him how dull his tactics are and challenging him to try a different force. There are plenty of limiting rules sets out there. The "germans are better than russians" arguement just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Rather, at any given period, it's quite possible one side has access to kit that is hard to match. The rarity system helps balance this a little, but there are the odd times when the uber-kit really was common.

[Maroule71]

very easy

next time, pick the weather parameters

soft ground, lots of woods, or fog (anything that restricts his LOS)

if not, besides what the other posters rightly said, snipers are very useful

[Jack Carr]

Try using force balancing rule sets. Many have been posted by various forum members.

I play QB's as German against AI or human Russian opponent and select Tiger and/or Panther tanks all the time. When I play this way I try to keep it historically accurate/balanced. Late 1943 on, I have two or three panzers to the Soviet AI's 10-15. Trust me when I say that against these odds, even a crack Tiger crew will have its hands full.

The easiest way to keep this balance is to give the Soviet player +25% to +50% at the very start of the QB (parameter selection).

[dieseltaylor]

I have played my brother many times 1943 and with modest hills and trees the Russians have a reasonable chance. Remember to set variable rarity as this can make for some great purchases.

Valentines are really worth considering as the English 6pounder 57mm is the best anti-tank gun you can get. I bought it as cheaply as 70 points. Cheaper than a 45mm AT and a transport and much more versatile. Certainly cheaper than the ZIS 57mm AT which does not always arrive with the necessary tungsten needed to make it a killer.

Try and play on a large [huge] map so you can use higher numbers of infantry and tanks to get around his Tigers. Also using the speed of the T34' you can normally arrive at the flags before him and drop of a welcoming committee. ....lol

Next invest in some cheap off - board mortars and drop smoke around him or even around your own defensive positions.

And do not forget those nice cheap 45's that can be smuggled into wodds to flank fire at his lighter stuff. Lots of options to play with. Airplanes can occasionally work and you should buy them every so often to keep him wasting money on AA assets. He will also spread his tanks wider apart.

If all else fails just play alternate games as the Germans and you get to use the forces he used against you .....

[JasonC]

No, not variable rariety. Rariety off. Tigers aren't rare, in CMBB's weird sense of things. OK, when there were like 12 Tigers on the entire eastern front, in 1942, they are rated as reasonably rare. But they typically run 30% rariety, and they touch 10% at one point. For a vehicle that never had more than the middle hundreds running at any one time, for the whole front.

Meanwhile the realistic standard Russian counter, the ZIS-2 57mm ATG, is rated 100 rariety long after the Tigers are 30, and still has 80 or 65 when they are supposedly common. The fact that there were 10 times as many of the ZIS-2s as there were of the Tigers doesn't enter into it, because the ZIS-2s are compared to 45mm and 76mm ATGs not Tigers, and Tigers are compared to StuGs and Panthers and such, not Russian ATGs.

Rariety on will always penalize the Russians.

As for the Valentine IX, it is better than many other things certainly, but its 57mm is not nearly as good as the Russians 57mm. It isn't blunt nose AP, so its penetration declines drastically with angle. It winds up needing very flat hits on hull sides, which are rare. Meanwhile it is easy to spot itself and of course dies when a Tiger hits it.

The ZIS-2s are a better bet in every way. When they get APCR they are Tiger killers even at range, yes. But they have good chances from the front at 250m even with plan AP, and some chances (rated "low" but in practice regular partial penetrations) at 500m or so. From the side they can kill at 500m too, as long as you aren't in the "lobes" of high angle just off the bow. Which typically means, as long as you pay attention before opening up and he isn't expecting your shooting location.

ZIS-2s with rariety off don't cost any more than Valentine IXs. You can certainly afford to trade them 1 for 1 for Tigers, even vs. attacker odds and with the limitations of the "support" category.

If an opponent wants to play all Tigers all of the time, you might want to throw realism to the winds and be as gamey as he is. Take (captured) StuGs rather than Valentines for your combined arms armor points. They kill much more easily, have a better rate of fire than SU-152s, and better optics than either.

If you aren't interested in being gamey, the other useful vehicles besides the Val IX are the T-34/57, the SU-85 once it comes out (but plan on needing side shots), and the SU-152 (but its low ROF can be a bear). Forget about using T-34/76s. In 1944, the T-34/85s are fine.

But you should not expect to stop him with your vehicles, not within a defender's budget and against whole platoons of the things. If you vehicles restrict his movements a bit and eventually KO one Tiger, consider them successful.

Instead expect to wear out the horde with accumulated kills and damage. What you want is a half dozen weapons categories, each costing less than a Tiger, and each with a decent chance of disabling one over the course of a whole game. Here are examples -

6-9 hidden AT mines (only have to get 1 to pay for themselves)

2-3 snipers (He may want them to stay buttoned, but they will open up on their own from time to time. Be waiting). Plus 4 ATRs and 2 25mm AA (500 annoyance shots at long range, searching for gun and track hits). All these also force him to button at will.

1 pioneer company (don't bother with tank hunters. 12 demo charges carried by full squads have a much better chance of getting one. Split into 3 sections each of HQ and 2 full squads).

1 IL-2 (go for the type with the most rockets - the guns won't kill Tigers even with top hits).

1 203mm FO with up to 5 TRPs. Yes, 8 inch arty will KO a Tiger with a near enough miss. But to get it to land anytime soon you need them on a TRP. Especially effective if he bunches up, and if you can fire with 2 FOs simultaneously. The 203 module gets 5 salvos, with roughly 2 minutes between each. The first lands at the end of the first minute if you use a TRP. Of course it also cuts up accompanying infantry very effectively.

1 Tiger killer AFV (or 2 Val IXs).

2-4 57mm ZIS-2s (the main line of defense).

You obviously don't have to take all of these. Take the ZIS-2s and pick 2-3 of the others.

Then how do you want the engagement to go? You want the annoyance shooters pinging him from long range, so far he gets only sound contacts in return. 300m and above is fine for the ATRs, while 500m is safer for the 25mm AA.

You want AT mines strung between cover blocks along routes you expect him to try, or just before a dominant piece of terrain he could see a lot from. (Not on it - mines often immobilize and you want his LOS restricted if he hits one).

Put pioneer groups with your regular infantry in covered areas you intend to hold. Preferably without long lines of sight to them.

Put TRPs on dominant terrain, in spots your 57mms can see, for boresighted accuracy. Cross the fire of 2 ATGs on each, at a 120 degree angle if possible, so one gets a decent angle. You can drop shells on a flock of them or ATG ambush a first or last vehicle. Don't button them before an arty strike, do before an ATG one.

The IL-2 will find him wherever, if you go that route.

Keep your AFVs well back behind cover, and only bring them out from a flank while the horde is engaged with another target. Try to snapshot by peeking around horizontal cover just enough to get LOS to a Tiger on one edge of the group. Make sure your annoyance guys button him.

Maybe the annoyance guys gun damage one of them. Maybe one bogs avoiding the mined roads. Maybe the mines get one. Maybe an airstrike or the arty knocks one out, or immobilizes with a near miss by a bomb or big shell.

That cuts the numbers gradually. Then you trade ZIS-2s for Tigers. You undoubtedly lose ZIS-2s in that process. But if you get 1 for 1 you are sitting pretty, and even if you get 1 for 2 you are doing OK.

During a promising period in all of the above if one arises, or after all of it otherwise, your AFV hunter if you have one tries to bag the last, or next to last, still moving and spitting.

The pioneers just keep them from getting to frisky in close, and make him send the infantry first. Perhaps you get a chance to close assault one. If not, you at least hold certain areas, walled off behind your AT mines and intact pioneer groups (and perhaps your TRPs, completing a "net").

I like the 203s because they also kill infantry. (A trick there - if his armor doesn't walk under your TRPs directly, try a "target wide" order on the one with the most infantry in the general area).

Pioneers can demo assaulting infantry in woods they are in, because woods LOS is only as long as demo throwing range (30m). As ordinary infantry they fight about like half the line infantry.

Snipers can pin FOs, mortars, and HQs as well as trying to bag tank commanders. 25mm AA has limited blast but high ammo, and can pin infantry in the open like an MG. SU-152s can torch infantry if left alive to the end.

See, part of why the tactic works is if you take *all* pure AT assets, you lose the infantry war. So it helps to have "switch hitters". Take enough line infantry. One light FO for smoke or to hit infantry in woods is OK too, if your arty budget can stand it after 203s or IL-2s.

I hope this helps.

[dieseltaylor]

Wow! rariety off is a different ballgame. Please disregard all previous thoughts as the ZIS2 is good value. Of course you can now have a Churchill aswell. Thinks have only played about 50 games and all with variable rariety.....

JasonC has the correct tactics

[d***]

[Maroule71]

very good post from JasonC

[zukkov]

jc, i swear you're a walking encyclopedia of cm tactics! i picture you as a wise old man on the mountain top, or perhaps a mage studying his ancient book of tactics. anyway, there doesn't seem to be a situation you don't have a detailed answer for. must be nice to be smart!

[SgtMuhammed]

Just finished an OP and ended up in the final battle facing 3 Tigers while I had about 25 T34s and T70s.

The AI did his usual trick of spreading out to cover his entire front so one of them was isolated while the other two were able to support each other.

I charged the loner with two platoons and destroyed him with the loss of two 34s. The other two were a different story.

I lost 14 T34s and 3 T70s before finally taking them out. One Tiger took 10 penetrations to his rear and sides before finally going down (I was sure it was dead at least twice only to have it start moving again).

The beasts are tough but if you can pay the price they can be dealt with. The 34/76 can penetrate the Tiger but you basically have to put the barrel against the side of the tank.

[jep]

Unfortunately defender won't be able to buy enougth tanks (except perhaps light tanks) to deal with attacker. And there are always danger axis player buys 10 or more fighters (actually they usually end to attact same abandonet/immobilized tanks so I think 5 fighters would be better). I think it is very risky to buy tanks when defending. Perhaps 1 or 2 tanks as JasonC wrote.

Perhaps it is usefull to invest largely to antitank mines? Perhaps improvised reverse slope tactics to make sure he have to risk his heavy tanks to utilize them? Even thougth assaulting axis can deploy some 2500 points (1500 points game), he is able to get "only" 4 or 5 Tigers (considering he buys also infanry). Not expecially much if you think the amount of antitank mines there are waiting.

I usually push agressively forward (with snipers or tankhunter teams) to recon where enemy is attacking. If my opponent keeps his forces close together the rest of batlemap is for me to manouver.

Also I try to purchase mg carrier per zis at-gun (dammit, only 1500 points). Recons should be able to find enemy quite easily thus giving time to debloy my quality antitank assets. Also zis crew should be crack to make sure they debloy 1 min (crack zis AT-gun is rather costly, some 90 points).

For static defense I think that ligth AA -guns (they are very cheap) are better for platoon AT defense than AT-rifles. If nothing else they provide protect against enemy aircrafts.

I have to try to buy heavy artillery spotters when defending. Home-ever, I think 210 mm artyspotters (conscript costs 93, ammo 12) are better than 203 mm (constript costs 160, ammo 20). Perhaps I missed something?

If attacker keeps his infanry relatively close together, it would also be extremely interesting to set a target reference points to somewhere midle of map and utilize a sniper to spot advansing enemy for two (or perhaps three) 300 mm rocket spotters (Unfortunately it requires least 5 rocket spotters to effectively destroy targetarea). Actually, rockets efective area is huge enougth to kill axis soldiers even if they are not deployed very close together.

Rockets may not be effective against tanks but without supporting infanry even superior Tigers cannot do much to occupy victoryflags.

[Sardaukar]

Originally posted by jep:

Rockets may not be effective against tanks but without supporting infanry even superior Tigers cannot do much to occupy victoryflags.

One of the overlooked facts is that Tiger is actually very lethal anti-infantry beast too. 88L56 has decent blast and it has *lots* of MG ammo. So, even infantry needs good terrain to close in. Even single Tiger can maul Soviet infantry by platoon after platoon in open.

Cheers,

M.S.

[kunstler]

I'm also very impressed with JC's post. Gonna copy that and keep it for reference.

I've been playing a number of scenarios, and then quick battles (vet Jerry vs. reg Ruskie), where Soviet tanks have to advance across open terrain towards the German ubertanks. Unless the German does something stupid (I am very good at this when playing German, others not so much), he's going to take a high tool on my advancing Soviets.

One thing I wonder about with CM is the scoring system: the end game notes the number of vehicle kills, which usually favours the axis. Anyone who likes a good kill ratio for an ego boost will pick Jerry (4 to 1 in kills is always nice), and I think that even with points/vehicle, it leans towards the German.

The long range kill ability of the Germans is waay better than it is for the Soviets. I had no idea how much a difference good optics would make until BB, it's as important as gun and armour. Russian shells also tend to have poor penetration ability at longer ranges. The only real good point about the Tiger is the slow turret.

I've tried doing the flanking bit, running along gullies and behind hills to get close, using smoke for cover for the last dash, and then blasting away at point blank range. Frontally, against King Ts, Panthers, and Ts the result is still poor, you really need the side shots.

Using infantry against the Tigers only works if the map has lots of trees, and vast areas of the Eastern Front had precious few of them. I've been trying to master playing on the plains with horrible results. I can't figure how to use infantry effectively in those situations. The only thing I can think of is to do a tank rush, and if I have infantry try to draw fire with them. Some anti-tank guns can help too, as they're harder to spot (at least against human opponents, not so much the AI). Small wonder the Soviets had higher tank losses.

One thing that surprised me was that IS2 frontal armour is easily penetrated by german stugs with 75mm guns at decent ranges, which surprised me. It's no Russian Tiger, much less a King Tiger.

kunstler

[Jack Carr]

Thoroughly enjoyed SgtGoody's response. Take a look at the odds in his post. I bet this was a great fun to play out.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by kunstler:

The long range kill ability of the Germans is waay better than it is for the Soviets. I had no idea how much a difference good optics would make until BB, it's as important as gun and armour.

That is a myth.

In CMBB the optics impact on hit probablities is extremly minimal. Compare guns with similar caliber and muzzle velocity, or just the 76.2mm gun captured and not caputed. The captured one has better optics but only minimally better hit chances.

I had a longer post in some other thread giving more numbers.