Fallschirmjägergewehr 42

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by BulletRat:

Ok, a little OT, but in DoD the FG42 hits hard, has a good RoF, and has evil recoil - that said, I love using it!

You might need some ear protection to go with it.

[Abteilung]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Snow Leopard:

I wonder why builder didn't noticed when test fire FG 42 that go out of balance due to heavy side of magazine?

If I had to make an uneducated guess, I'd say the biggest factor would be that the designed mechanism wasn't sophisticated enough to allow feeding from below. </font>

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Abteilung:

I've also heard the weapon was side-fed to allow a lower profile and easier use while prone. That is just what I heard from another person, however, and not substantiated by documentation.

I was about to say that, but I didn't want to sound like a nitpicker.

[Snow Leopard]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Snow Leopard:

I wonder why builder didn't noticed when test fire FG 42 that go out of balance due to heavy side of magazine?

If I had to make an uneducated guess, I'd say the biggest factor would be that the designed mechanism wasn't sophisticated enough to allow feeding from below. </font>

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Snow Leopard:

I will said "What? no way" because they already have MP 38 & 40 with magazine feed at bottom then I remember German's MG feed is at side. I think maybe they focus on feed style of MG34/42 and MP 34/35 too much instead of new style feed SMG...MP 38/40.

As it has been already mentioned, the most likely reason for placing the mag on the side might've been to allow the weapon a minimal profile.

But do understand that it's alot harder to design an automatic feed mechanism for the powerful rifle round, than the measly (in comparison) 9mm parabellum round.

[flamingknives]

Equally, the FG 42 is predated by 24 years by the rifle-calibre, bottom feeding BAR.

Profile is a compelling reason - although that would depend on how the magazine is loaded. A double stacked, 20 round magazine barely protruded below the pistol grip on a battle rifle. If it was single stacked, then profile would be a good reason.

The other reason is ease of reloading - the sides and top of a weapon are far easier to access to reload than a magazine well under the weapon. Putting the magazine on top, however, interferes with the sight line, meaning you need offset sights.

The location of the magazine also gives a clue as to how it was intended to be used - as a light support weapon fired from a prone position. It's small size would indicate that it is possible to jump with it, giving the Fallschirmjagers a SAW from the off, rather than having to locate their weapons container.

[Snow Leopard]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

But do understand that it's alot harder to design an automatic feed mechanism for the powerful rifle round, than the measly (in comparison) 9mm parabellum round.

I now see your point about too powerful rifle round. I should had know that. Thank you Bone_Vulture.

[Snow Leopard]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Equally, the FG 42 is predated by 24 years by the rifle-calibre, bottom feeding BAR.

Profile is a compelling reason - although that would depend on how the magazine is loaded. A double stacked, 20 round magazine barely protruded below the pistol grip on a battle rifle. If it was single stacked, then profile would be a good reason.

The other reason is ease of reloading - the sides and top of a weapon are far easier to access to reload than a magazine well under the weapon. Putting the magazine on top, however, interferes with the sight line, meaning you need offset sights.

The location of the magazine also gives a clue as to how it was intended to be used - as a light support weapon fired from a prone position. It's small size would indicate that it is possible to jump with it, giving the Fallschirmjagers a SAW from the off, rather than having to locate their weapons container.

I had wonder why British design bren make sighting more difficult that magazine can block importand target when handler look at other thing. Do you know what I talk about? Also when you said about double slack round magazine, I get picture how dangerous if paratroop jump out plane with bren and strap may snap bren out hold or wrap parachute strings up bad due to long curve magazine! that's scare! I bet that top brass of paratrooper want "Swiss pocketknife" rifle that can do many way of combat into one firearm on hand. I read one of website that brass want that battle rifle that can use in sniper role but when test FG 42 turn out can not be because of too much fireball out muzzzle. That may one blade miss from "Swiss pocketknife rifle"

[Wisbech_lad]

Bren was a Czech design, that the British licensed.

Name comes from Brno & Enfield.

[scharfschutze]

Hi all,

There are a lot of books out there that discuss the FG42 in detail. I personally would have chosen it to carry if it was available. I think I may try, just for fun, to sub a FG42 into the game, replacing the MG34 squad weapon icon when playing FJs, if I get ambitious. Here are a couple photos, for some "eye candy" for you guys that also like it. The pic with two rifles in it shows the early version on top, and the later version below. Enjoy!

Scharfschutze

[K_Tiger]

Nice Pictures Scharfschütze! Do you own those items?

I like the way the germs equip her automatic weapons with optical devices. Its mostly contrair to the overall opinnion high muzzle velocity = low accuracy.

[scharfschutze]

Hi K Tiger!

No, I don't own them - I wish I did! Only a few hundred of these beauties survive, I've heard - mostly in museum collections, a few in private hands. I've just found these pictures on the net while surfing - do a google search on "fg-42" and you will be surprised what comes up!

I, too, think it is interesting that the optical sight was issued with the weapon. Until just recently, besides use by snipers and other specialists, armies have generally considered it a waste of money to issue these items to "average" soldiers, because of their fragility and likelihood of being misued or broken by poor/inept handling. I think this speaks volumes for the high quality and top training of the Fallschirmjager.

Here is a link to another pic - I post the link only, because it is a graphic pic. It shows a dead Waffen SS officer, defender of Berlin. He is a lieutenant (rank of SS-Untersturmfuhrer), decorated with the Iron Cross 1st Class, an unidentifiable badge, and what appears to be a Wound Badge - he is a decorated veteran fighter. What one might only notice later is that the weapon is an FG-42, and the helmet is a FJ helmet!

http://stitchen.echoes.net/ssfj-berlin.jpg

So, he must have an interesting story indeed. The SS Parachute Battalion 500, and some small commando teams, of which I can only find a little reference material about, were formed late in the war and saw action only in the East, the big operation being the 500 Battalion drop on Drvar in Yugoslavia, in 1944, to attempt to capture Tito; and the fighting for defense of the Reich, and Berlin. So, despite being a propaganda photo, it shows one of the elite fighters of the Reich.

Gents, enjoy! If I create a FG-42 BMP, I'll post it here in case anyone wants to use it.

best regards,

Scharfschutze

[ February 16, 2004, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: scharfschutze ]

[Sirocco]

What was the German parachute unit that was scattered during it's drop in the initial stages of the Bulge offensive? Was it an FJ or SS unit?

[scharfschutze]

Hi Sirocco!

That was Kampfgruppe von der Heydte. The commander, Oberst (Colonel) Freidrich von der Heydte, was one of the most experienced and highest-decorated commanders in the FJ. On the eve of the Ardennes offensive, he was ordered to assemble a unit of 800 men, drawing 100 of the best and most experienced parachutists from each of the 8 regiments in the II. Fallschirmkorps. So it was a composite unit of FJ from various units. On paper, von der Heydte had organized the FJ into 4 light infantry companies, a heavy weapons company, a signal platoon and supply platoon. All this from the book "Battle of the Bulge - Then and Now", by Jean-Paul Pallud. A great book!

best,

Scharfschutze

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by scharfschutze:

That was Kampfgruppe von der Heydte. The commander, Oberst (Colonel) Freidrich von der Heydte, was one of the most experienced and highest-decorated commanders in the FJ. On the eve of the Ardennes offensive, he was ordered to assemble a unit of 800 men, drawing 100 of the best and most experienced parachutists from each of the 8 regiments in the II. Fallschirmkorps. So it was a composite unit of FJ from various units. On paper, von der Heydte had organized the FJ into 4 light infantry companies, a heavy weapons company, a signal platoon and supply platoon.

Thanks. I had a vague idea it might have been an SS unit. I would assume the unit would have dropped with a few FG42's? If that's the case it would be interesting to discover how they dropped with them.

[BaD JoKe]

Interesting but a gory picture. It just shows us that how ever good you are, how well you are trained, how excellent equipment you have, death will take you if it's meant.

Sometimes we forget the cruel reality in our ravings..

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by BaD JoKe:

Interesting but a gory picture. It just shows us that how ever good you are, how well you are trained, how excellent equipment you have, death will take you if it's meant.

What, people get killed in a war?! :eek:

[scharfschutze]

Hi Sirocco,

Regarding how the FG42 and other weapons would be secured in a jump, I checked several of my books on FJ. After Crete, the Germans recognized the flaw in using the weapons containers to drop the personal weapons. If the FJ didn't have the time to locate them and distribute them after the jump, they would be armed only with P08 pistols. From what I can see (could not find any pictures of new gear, or troops dropping with their weapons), the Germans gave little effort to the problem anyway, after the FJ began being used more and more in a regular ground infantry role. One reason gliders were in vogue for so long was that the glider troops could land fully armed and equipped, also carrying light guns and radios, ammo, supplies, etc. The only thing I did find about the Ardennes drop was that, in addition to the pilots dropping the guys everywhere but their intended DZ, that the troops that von der Heydte could assemble had difficulty in locating the weapon containers that were actually dropped successfully, nearby. Hope this is of help!

Scharfschutze

[Ant]

After Crete, the Germans recognized the flaw in using the weapons containers to drop the personal weapons.

They should have realised that before Crete. There was an incident during the invasion of Holland where the paratroops captured a bridge using pistols as they'd got separated from their weapons containers.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by scharfschutze:

the troops that von der Heydte could assemble had difficulty in locating the weapon containers that were actually dropped successfully

To me, this is the real puzzle behind the FG42. The Germans obviously had no intention to continue with parachute drops, certainly at a large scale, and that being the case an MG42 in a weapons container makes more sense than a specific FJ weapon. No matter how good the weapon was it shouldn't have been developed or fielded.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Ant:

They should have realised that before Crete. There was an incident during the invasion of Holland where the paratroops captured a bridge using pistols as they'd got separated from their weapons containers.

That'd make a nice CM scenario. Elite paratroopers... Armed with pistols!

[Emar]

Lets not forget that the Fg42 was also the weapon of choice for Race Bannon on more than one occasion in the old Johny Quest cartoons from the 60's.

In his capable hands the Fg42 could not miss, even when the bad guys were hiding around the corner. No problem there, he simply ricocheted the bullets off the blade of a handily parked bulldozer to take them out.

Just another useless tidbit of info which also gives away my age

[BaD JoKe]

Originally posted by Sirocco:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by scharfschutze:

the troops that von der Heydte could assemble had difficulty in locating the weapon containers that were actually dropped successfully

To me, this is the real puzzle behind the FG42. The Germans obviously had no intention to continue with parachute drops, certainly at a large scale, and that being the case an MG42 in a weapons container makes more sense than a specific FJ weapon. No matter how good the weapon was it shouldn't have been developed or fielded. </font>

[scharfschutze]

I disagree with those that say the weapon was a misstep in weapons development. I don't think the primary intent of the weapon was as a squad automatic weapon, but as a selective fire rifle. Recall that the Germans did not have a standard semiautomatic rifle in a full-size caliber - their primary weapon was the Kar98 bolt-action rifle. I think the optical sight was supplied with the FG-42 to give the soldier the capability of long-range, accurate single shot fire, with faster reload through a semiautomatic action. (Ever tried to keep a running man, who knows he's being shot at, in the sights of a bolt-action rifle scope at 200-300 meters, while you're cycling the bolt?) The automatic function was available only for suppression, or as a last resort - not to give every soldier his own personal machine gun.

Though not designed the same, the postwar US M14 and the Belgian FN-FAL were both of the same configuration - selective fire rifles, which could be fitted with optical sights, firing a full power rifle cartridge (as opposed to the StG44, followed by the AK-47). Both the M14 and FN-FAL enjoyed huge usage worldwide, and are still in wide use today. If seen from this perspective, maybe the FG-42 was not so "off target" (please forgive the pun.)

best regards,

Scharfschutze

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by scharfschutze:

Recall that the Germans did not have a standard semiautomatic rifle in a full-size caliber - their primary weapon was the Kar98 bolt-action rifle.

G41W / G43, anyone?

And seriously, aren't there any documents available on the net to shead some light on the FG42's designated purpose?