Russian Armour in Autumn 1943...

[Pzman]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

"...but i remember reading that by summer 1944 Panthers had real lousy armor quality"

I believe one 'feature' of the game's late Panther G is the increased tendency for flaking from non-penetrating hits, due to overly hard armor. I haven't heard this mentioned on the board for years but one supposes its still there! The thing is, the Panther usually so overmatches an opponent that a little extra spalling goes practically unnoticed. I havent' checked but I believe armor quality for the late G drops in the specs.

Indeed, armor quality is down to 85% from the Late Panther A through the G's. IIRC.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

i found some time to do some limited testing and it appears that at 2000 meters two IS-2s have an upper hand over a lone Panther. at those ranges IS-2s are quite safe, while 122mm hits freak out the Panther.

unfortunately it would be hard to use this tactic in live games, because TACAI forces the IS-2s to withdraw when facing a Pather at 2000 meters.

122mm didn't seem to have any special results on Panthers, even with the flat nosed ammo (tests both on fall 1944 and early 1945). perhaps it isn't modelled at all. or perhaps i remember wrongly what i had read.

at 1000-1500 meters the result was dice rolling, both having about 50% chances of winning.

EDIT: did some quick googling, and while i didn't find a "first hand" source, i found a number of pages (amongst others battlefront.co.nz and battlefield.ru) claiming that IS-2 should be able to KO Panthers at 2500 meters. in my tests i didn't see a single KO from 2000 meters, only panicked crews. hitting the Panther wasn't a problem, the problem was that hits rarely penetrated at all.

EDIT2: came up with a post by Rexford at TankNet, which says that the 122mm APBC should penetrate Panther hull at 2875 meters. :eek:

[ May 06, 2005, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: undead reindeer cavalry ]

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

unfortunately it would be hard to use this tactic in live games, because TACAI forces the IS-2s to withdraw when facing a Pather at 2000 meters.

Not to mention that the IS2 would run out of AP ammo before it would hit the Panther...

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

Not to mention that the IS2 would run out of AP ammo before it would hit the Panther...

no it would not. hitting the Panther is not the problem.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzer76:

Not to mention that the IS2 would run out of AP ammo before it would hit the Panther...

no it would not. hitting the Panther is not the problem. </font>

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzer76:

Not to mention that the IS2 would run out of AP ammo before it would hit the Panther...

no it would not. hitting the Panther is not the problem. </font>

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzer76:

Not to mention that the IS2 would run out of AP ammo before it would hit the Panther...

no it would not. hitting the Panther is not the problem. </font>

[undead reindeer cavalry]

ok then, redid my limited test, though only with August 1944 runs this time. run the test only six times, so a considerable error margin does exist.

at little over 2000 meters, two veteran IS-2s (no bonuses) had a 75% hit chance per turn. worth noting: with the slow ROF, it translated into a first shot hit in 33% of the runs.

the LOS tools gives initially a 11% hit chance (14% for the Panther), then later it climbs up to 38% (42% for the Panther). because of higher ROF the Panther pings more, but rarely causes any damage. IS-2s eventually scare the Panther, possibly due to the commander debuttoning itself & getting himself killed - didn't look for that yet.

with the ~75% hit chance per turn, getting a hit from 2000 meters is clearly no problem for two veteran IS-2s. they do get hits if they open fire, and their fire seems likely to freak out the Panther, thus making it withdraw from its position.

the problem is that in real live game the IS-2s will auto-retreat once they spot a Panther at 2000 meters (they don't do that in test fires, because i can give them a target command right from the beginning). this is likely to make it hard to make the IS-2s open fire at the Panther.

the second possible problem is that it appears that the 122mm ammo may not damage the Panther the way it perhaps should - didn't record a single KO from 2000 meters. please note that my previous similar test included runs at early 1945, which should give the IS-2s the flat nosed APBC.

BTW i run simultaneously test fires on little over 1000 and little over 1500 meters. at those ranges the IS-2s won the duel on 5 out of 6 runs. worth noticing IMO.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

ok then, redid my limited test, though only with August 1944 runs this time. run the test only six times, so a considerable error margin does exist.

This is with no AFV being hull down I take it?

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

This is with no AFV being hull down I take it?

yes, that's correct. a good point.

[Wartgamer]

The Panther's rate of fire is much better than many AFV. Its actually superior to a M36 TD and even a T34/76.

Rate of fire has to do with ammo layout as well as ammo weight and type (one piece vs. two piece), size, interior-space, turret basket and other factors.

The Panther could rotate its hull and also use the fact that revving its engine could slew the turret quicker than many AFV. This also effects 'rate-of-fire' in that it allows the fire initiation to start quickly.

BTW: The early JS2 were very weak and tests using a ZIS-3 gun showed that it was vulnerable all around at 500-600 meters. This was not rectified till summer 44.

http://www.battlefield.ru/is2_1.html

[ May 07, 2005, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[DesertMouse]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

The Panther's rate of fire is much better than many AFV. Its actually superior to a M36 TD and even a T34/76.

Rate of fire has to do with ammo layout as well as ammo weight and type (one piece vs. two piece), size, interior-space, turret basket and other factors.

The Panther could rotate its hull and also use the fact that revving its engine could slew the turret quicker than many AFV. This also effects 'rate-of-fire' in that it allows the fire initiation to start quickly.

BTW: The early JS2 were very weak and tests using a ZIS-3 gun showed that it was vulnerable all around at 500-600 meters. This was not rectified till summer 44.

http://www.battlefield.ru/is2_1.html

Nice link.

I was playing a scenario recently with a Panther (VG?) and some Volkssturm Pioneers against some serious Russian armour with infantry support. It was in about January 45.

I should let all of you know that at about 900 metres a IS-2 122mm shell tore my Panther apart with a frontal hit (not shot trap hit) and my Panther exploded with all crew dead.

Prior to that, the cat disposed of a number of Su-76s, T-35/85s and an IS-2.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by CousinPablo:

Russian Armour in Autumn 1943...

I recently played an armour v armour quick battle as Russian infantry (1 company) supporting armour (3 T-34-85s and 2 IS-2s).

first off, like many others here I am wondering: where in the world did you get your T-34/85s from in autumn 1943 ?!?

Originally posted by Generaloberst Guderian:

Don't forget that the Panther A is somewhat vulnerable to a side turret hit, as the design lends itself to redirecting errant rounds down into the turret ring rather than off the face of the armor.

Im not sure I understand.

did you ever take a look at a Panther A ?

- it is *not* a side turret issue.

the problem is the gun mantlet construcion, which makes for nice ricochets alright, but in the lower half it thereby tends to deflect the projectile downwards into the thin top armor and joint between turret and hull.

Originally posted by Generaloberst Guderian:

As for the shot trap, I was playing the HSG The Panthers Roll scenario, which was discussed here about a week ago, and lost 2 Panther A's due to that flaw. Just to avoid refuting everything I just said, let me preface by telling you that I destroyed 51 Soviet AFVs while losing only those two Panthers and a Jagdpanzer IV. What basically happens is a shell hits the manlet and gets deflected down into the superstructure. In both cases I witnessed the message "Side Turret Partial Penetration -- Knocked Out" was displayed, and visually it looked as if the tank had been stuck by an HE round. It can be annoying to deal with as the turret sides themselves are, in theory, fairly capable of withstanding most projectiles.

a hit to the "shot trap" on the Panther A registers as a "front turret penetration at weak spot" in CMBB.

if you had "side turret hit partial penetration" disable your Panthers then it was definitely *not* a shot trap issue.

or did I misunderstand you ?

now,

as regards the original scenario and problem,

SU-85s even with their lousy late-43 85 ammo can kill Panthers pretty much ok if you gang up on them (like everyone repeatedly said - stack up or dont engage at all) at or below 500m. be prepared to lose one or two SU-85s in the process, however. at that range the 85 *can* penetrate the Panther A turret front independent of shot trap.

the whole setting is very reminiscent of the old Pz IV problem - you are invulnerable at the hull but toast if they hit your weaker turret.

it's when you're wondering whether hull down is really such a good idea.

like JasonC already said - 122 will kill the panther turret even at remotely realistic ranges, and 85 starts hurting between 500 to 750 meters.

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

i haven't played any long range IS-2 vs Panther duels in CM, but i remember reading that by summer 1944 Panthers had real lousy armor quality & that the 122mm shell could open up Panthers like tin cans at 2500+ meters without actually penetrating the armor.

I'ld say you will have a hard time hitting anything at that range with the IS-2'S 122mm gun, good luck.

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Its hard to figure out how to best o utilitze the IS-2. The turret protection barely exceeds German 'medium tank' specs, and the big 122mm gun is primarily for infantry support and rarely gets a first round hit against an enemy tank. A good tank to have if you need to knock down a large buiding, though.

...hehe...plus the building doesnt run away so the slow rate of fire is not an issue )

BD6 already pointed out how he uses the IS-2s popping up like moles; especially enjoyed his remark about "emasculating a great tank like that" *g*

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

The Soviet and US 'policy' of sticking with a MBT design and improving it seems to be winning out over the German attempt to change horses in mid-stream.

...oh yeah...thats why the us didnt have the M10 and the M36, the russians didnt have SU85s, 122s and 152s,...and the germans didnt build the Royal Tiger, the Maus and what not.

...IOW, I thinks that's too general a statement. like you said yourself, the russians did introduce SPAT themselves, plus of course the germans didnt abandon tanks and go SPG only. eventuwally they streamlined tank production to less than a handful of variants, but their additional use of SPGs made sense.

cheers,

M.H.

[Wartgamer]

...oh yeah...thats why the us didnt have the M10 and the M36, the russians didnt have SU85s, 122s and 152s,...and the germans didnt build the Royal Tiger, the Maus and what not.

...IOW, I thinks that's too general a statement. like you said yourself, the russians did introduce SPAT themselves, plus of course the germans didnt abandon tanks and go SPG only. eventuwally they streamlined tank production to less than a handful of variants, but their additional use of SPGs made sense.

cheers,

M.H.

Yes, its a general statement and its generally true.

The Germans were the only major player (US, Germany and Soviets) to field completely new MBT in the middle of the war.

The soviets concentrated on the T34 and developed a 85mm version. The US concentrated on the sherman and developed a 76mm armed version.

The Germans ceased production of one MBT (Panzer III) but had to continue production of the Panzer IV and Panther for the rest of the war. The fielding of Panthers has been shown to be slow (at a time when every tank was desperately needed) and plagued with teething problems.

Soviet T34/85 were delivered to units in the field as replacements. The only training needed was the gun/turret systems. The Germans had to remove whole panzer battalions to the rear to train them on the Panthers.

[flamingknives]

An interesting question would be:

What would have happened if the Germans had, instead of switching to the Panther, stuck with the PzIV?

[Wartgamer]

Or instead of sticking with the Panzer IV, going to some other 'non-45 ton MBT' alternative?

In 1944-1945, the Germans were using 4 chassis vehicles. The Panzer III (StuG), The Panzer IV (PanzerIV, StugIV, JagdpanzerIV, etc), Panther (Panther, JagdPanther), 38t (Hetzer) as well as Tiger(s) also.

The Panther was too heavy for a MBT and could actually be considered a 'semi-heavy' tank. Its retrieval needs, fuel consumption, reliability did not make up for its effectiveness on the battlefield. Its weak side armor and size made it just as vulnerable as any other MBT when on the attack.