Need suggestions for plan of attack! (pics in post)

[ErikinWest]

Ok my fellow comrades, I have an important game and I need your help. In this battle I will be playing as the Axis in a 1250 game. It will be 30 turns. It is late '44. There are three flags. Two small, one large.

Ok here is my list: http://img418.imageshack.us/my.php?image=list1of.jpg

I have four platoons. 2 SMG platoons and two Rifle platoons. I plan to use the Rifle platoons to cover my SMG platoons as they assault. I'll also use my Rifle platoons to engage in long range firefights with the soviets as they have 42 ammo. The King Tiger and Elephant are very durable. Since it will be close quarters, and I know my opponent won't flank me, the tank’s 'blue' armor should give me an advantage. In our games we always are allowed to take two trucks, so that's how I plan to move the mortars and MG42s.Please suggest how I may change the list.

Here is the map.

http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plan8yg.jpg

You'll notice the area that I highlighted white. This area is completely open. So for the Axis (which is me) I have a difficult situation to get those two flags. So I have decided to do a special kind of attack.

The 'Red Line' is a Rifle Platoon. It will go to the buildings on the edge of the open area. From there they will fool my opponent into thinking that I have put men there and may have to charge from there. They have 42 ammo so they can engage in a firefight for a long time. I also hope to bring up mortars and HMG to back them up.

The 'White line' is a SMG platoon. It will strike quickly at point C with 'Green line'. Once I have a clear control of that area, 'White line' and 'Green line' will then charge point B across the open road. As my opponent will not have all his forces at that one corner, I think it is the best root to charge across the open.

The 'Green line' is a SMG platoon and has the same role as the 'White line'.

The 'Blue Line' is a Rifle Platoon. It has three functions in this battle. The first will be to get a good cover area so that 'White line and Green line' can get to point C. Once point C is secured it will then provide fire cover to 'White and Green line' to charge at point B.

My tanks will mainly be in the open road. They will shoot at anything in the buildings to help ‘Red line’ suppress the enemy and fool them to think that I plan to attack across the main open area. My snipers will be the first ones at point C. I don't want to fall into any traps.

Ok I look forward to any comments or suggestions.

Thanks,

Erik

[juan_gigante]

I would ditch the Elephant and add some light armor that can dance through the buildings, hit enemy infantry, and maybe get some side shots. I personally love the Stummel halftrack because it's lots of cheap mobile HE. That's just me though.

[JasonC]

A king tiger and an elephant strikes me as overkill on the armor winning side. If you take the KT you don't need the Elephant - take 2 StuHs instead. Or you can take 2 Elephants and 1 StuH. The point is to get more HE firepower and ammo depth for blasting people in buildings, since this is an urban fight.

A StuH has 80mm front, enough to bounce 76mm AP. They get 30 rounds of big direct fire HE, 50% stronger than the 88s in infantry and building breaking terms. They also get a few HC rounds each, not many but enough to dispatch one enemy AFV. Not the best accuracy at range with those, but in terrain this tight that should not matter.

You don't need 4 regular sharpshooters. 2 are plenty, but take them as veterans (assuming the QB settings allow it). Spend the points on panzershrecks instead. Much more powerful. And in this terrain, you will have use for them. The Russians are likely to hide their armor from your big cat. You will want ways to hit and kill tanks that he can't so easily see coming. You can take 3 of them, or 2 and 1-2 THs, depending on what you do with the armor choices.

Your fusilier rifle platoons are not all 42 ammo. Only 2 out of 3 squads are, the 3rd is "heavy" with LMG and 5 SMG and only 28 ammo, meant to be used largely as an SMG squad. Here is the way you should "task" around that.

Your 2 rifle platoons should each give their 3rd, heavy squad to the company HQ. Then they should take one of the HMGs and a sharpshooter. These are now your ranged combat platoons. The HMG has as much firepower as the missing squad, better even, once it sets up. If you take the 2 StuH idea, you can support each with one, with the HMG and platoon HQ riding initially.

The mortars and dinky 75mm FO can go with the weapons HQ, and use your free trucks. (Since the FO is a line one, he will have to walk. Can't be helped).

Then the 2 SMG platoons and the new company HQ "SMG platoon" form your main body. Give each of these HQs a schreck as well. They are supposed to get close. But following up direct HE and shooting from across streets, not charging.

Put the KT (or one Elephant, in the 2 Elephant version) on the main street, bisecting the enemy position as you planned.

As for where to cross, the far left could be as good as the option you outline. It will be just as hard to cross the road right to left, as the one back to front. To do either, you need to smash the guys on the far side by fire.

The cover fire groups should steer for the spots you had them regardless. Their first role is simply to prevent anyone from crossing the roads toward you, each able to look through the spot where the N-S and E-W open areas cross.

The main body can do a right hook even farther than you have it, or it can go left and cross the white area near the left edge, after fire deals with the forward enemy on that side. Your call, nothing wrong with the first. But do not think the bisector road is any easier to run across, it isn't. Nor that you can just overload the corner, you can't. It doesn't take defenders on that corner to stop you from crossing. Anywhere along that road, sighting into it, will do.

One other thing to consider is the use to make of the 75mm FO. 50 rounds of indirect 49 blast aren't very powerful, particularly against building cover. But you could get a smoke mission out of it instead, with the 81mms and the StuHs also able to contribute a few smoke rounds apiece. Don't smoke before you've had the firefight - you need to break the enemy on the other side by fire, first. But after that, you can cut them off from help and cover the actual crossing movement, with smoke.

I hope this helps.

[ErikinWest]

As usual JasonC, your information is invaluable. However, there is a history to this map that I did not explain. Perhaps I should have.

I have played this map against the opponent (who will play as the Soviets in this match) who was in the first game, the Axis. My opponent complained about two things. The first was that the open area makes it impossible for the Axis to win. The second is that he complained that Soviet armor was overpowered (I have never heard that before!!). So I have challenged him in a re-match but now I will play as the Axis.

Ok I will now get back to my reply. I definitely like dropping the Elephant for two StuHs. I also dropped the four sharpshooters for two and added some panzershreks. Your idea about pairing up the Company Leader with the extra squad of the Rifle platoon is brilliant.

Though I must disagree with the idea to attack on the far left. All enemy units located from points A and B can target ANYWHERE in the white area. That's bad! I know my opponent well enough to know that he'll line his men against the buildings of points A and B (as that is what I did as the soviets last game). If I attack from C to B he will only have a few units in the corner building. I most likely know that he'll take IS-2's. As that is what I took last game and he complained that they were overpowered. So the StuHs may be vulnerable to them.

Feel free to add any more comments,

Thanks,

Erik

[NameUsedBefore]

Honestly, I would go across the open. If I were your opponent I'd be looking for you to frog-hop across the neighboor-hood area. I might put an MG or a sniper or two (and maybe even a tank) near the open area, but I wouldn't put my main force there.

You're funneling a LOT of guys into a very small area, and that can be dangerous. Your best route may be simply going across that big area. Hell, if at all possible you may be able to get across stealthily and without problem.

You look easy to trap, contain, and destroy with your plan. Too bunched up, IMO, and you're vulnerable to having a lot of guys in a building that your opponent may see fit for demolition. Not a good thing.

[NameUsedBefore]

And here's another idea: shoot some light armour up the streets at your enemy to post-pone any movement he will be trying to make. They'll more than likely die (the light), but keep them alive as possible and just bugger the enemy. Hell, if possible hitch a group of infantry on the light armour (a squad or two) to really tie him up. Or maybe even the sharp-shooters. Do all this while you get your main force across that open patch. Or smoke the hell out of that area... or mortar the areas he may be passing through.

[ErikinWest]

Nameusedbefore. I still don't see how crossing an area that I know my opponent will have set up men to defend will be a good idea. As I have said before, everyone by the 'white' area can see all of the 'white' area. I don't see how I could cross 125m without being raped.

Erik

[NameUsedBefore]

What fog-of-war setting are you playing on?

And why would your opponent set up defence around an area that you are obviously not going to cross? If anything he is going to be looking for you in the 'cover' area of the neighborhood where you'll more than likely get bottled up.

Again, smoke it; shoot the light-armour to his front while he's organizing; try to move across silently. If your fog-of-war is on Extreme (like it should be, really); I'd "Move" my main contingent across that open area, and "Run" a few guys in the bottle-neck area. The "Move" will give up some visibility, but how many you are moving will be largley unknown; while a bunch of guys running about on the right flank will look like a lot more activity then what's there.

[juan_gigante]

Substitute "Advance" for "Move" in NUB's advice, and you've got a decent plan. It'd be a gamble, perhaps, but I'm reasonably sure that a force could cross the white area by bounds. After all, that huge road down the middle is nearly as wide as the white zone. It looks like about 40m to that first really skinny row of trees, some houses and other cover, then cross the road and you're there. I think it would be very important to do this quickly and soon - you don't want to try it with the entire enemy force watching. Have long range assets tie him down for as long as possible, while infantry go up, at run if in the open. I agree that light armor would be handy, both to establish a foothold on the VLs and to harass the heck out of the Soviet tanks. And I'd send a platoon or platoon and a half through the right, even so. Prevent the enemy from moving through there, flank the VLs, take VL C - there's a lot to be done there.

I would say one StuH and 2+ PSWs or other light armor. I don't know how many you can get with the points left over, but it might be a tidy number.

[ErikinWest]

I definitely can now see this working but on one prerequisite. I would need to destroy my entire enemy's armor. My men will be cut down by an IS-2 or an SU.

If the StuH's have no opposition, I think the plan could work very well.

Erik

[JasonC]

Light armor is a bad idea this late in the war, against a Russian likely to have T-34/85s or IS-2s. Just fodder.

My left idea would not be a race, but to plaster the area you marked as "B" with HE for several minutes, clobbering everything there. One ranged group would be opposite that position, where your "red" platoon is headed. The other on the right, and the KT along the center road, all hitting B with more than enough HE.

If he is in B and to the right of the road, with only limited guys in A, this would set up the left hook. You'd still do it cautiously and support it by fire, of course. Not a rush. If there isn't much fire and a scout has made it across, then you smoke and cross the rest.

Defensive set ups that have everyone in "up", wide LOS positions, do not work in my experience. They don't need to be flanked, either. They can be smashed frontally by simple firepower tactics. The easiest place to cross is anyplace you can bring so much firepower to bear, nothing can live there. If he wants to garrison it, great let him. After 50 rounds of 105mm HE direct, nobody will be left.

But there is nothing wrong with the right hook idea. I'd go wider than you've drawn it, leaving the overwatch group about where you show the whole converging mass, or maybe a little closer to your side of the map. That way, that overwatch group sees B at close range and covers both open axes, the white zone and the splitting road. The main body would head farther up the right side, beyond the level of B, wheeling inward by pivoting on that overwatch group.

Then smash everybody in B with firepower, same way. You cross th splitting road farther up, and not all in one spot, but clear from the overwatch position to near his side of the map. Wherever a scout gets across safely. Not all one go, but building up a squad, a platoon with a schreck, a second, etc.

On IS-2s, they will kill StuHs if they hit them, certainly. The StuH will kill them right back if they have an HC round to fire. 105mm HC kills what it hits. At these ranges, the muzzle velocity is no problem (it is decent anyway), so the accuracy is fine. You don't get a lot of it, 3 per StuH being typical. But they only need to defend themselves against one IS-2 coming after them, they don't need to go looking themselves. That's what the KT is for (and the schrecks, from building cover).

I do think the Russians have good stuff for this sort of fight, incidentally. SMG infantry, flexible infantry types with good ammo and several SMGs, decent tanks. Frankly the main thing they are missing is something like a schreck, which it is incredibly useful to have in street fighting.

[ErikinWest]

Thanks for another reply JasonC,

The StuH's will make it ten fold easier to attack across the open area. But again, as I said earlier, if they are killed I don't think I'll be able to attack the position.

Erik

[JasonC]

PS actually against late model IS-2s, 105mm HEAT will need turret hits, but can do the job when it gets them. The KT should be a monster even against those. Schrecks can also kill them, only the front glacis presenting any difficulty.

[JasonC]

Agreed. So you keyhole them, meaning look down only one street between buildings, so you can see the target opposite but little else. And get schrecks forward to buildings overlooking the whole wide open area, both axes. That and the KT dominating the main road should force his tanks to stay back in his own blocks, and let your StuHs find spots to chuck in their HE even if his tanks are still alive. If he saunters out in the open, retreat them briefly and let the schrecks pick some off, then run the table with the KT.

If he has anything less than IS-2 late model, or SU-100s, your StuHs will be in an even, first hit wins, eggshells with hammers match up themselves.

[ErikinWest]

Oh and one more thing JasonC. Do you think I should buy Target Reference Points? If so, where shall I place them?

Thanks,

Erik

[NameUsedBefore]

I'd still go for light-tracked vehicles to send a small contingent to your enemy. Expect them to die eventually, but you can drop off a squad or two (or snipers/'schrecks) right at his front and do some temporary damage.

Or just use trucks/jeeps.

[Zalgiris 1410]

With one Artillery spotter team to position where you think that you might want to lay that smoke screen I really don't think that you are going to need a TPR for that especially if you use a HQ to spot for it or just pre-plan it and target it on the first turn hoping that your timing is right on the money for both when and where you'll need the smoke screen up for concealment.

OTOH you might want one or two TRPs for the mortars to target the key buildings and the approach areas immediately farther back just behind those buildings to the front of flag 'C' on the right front (which is the unexposed approach route for the Russian infantry away from the straight roads to the 'C' flag's immediate area) that might help out your troops in their manoeuvres in that confined area. I hope you identify the right target positions here though, I'm pretty crap at that myself, I must admit, but I think this kind of fire mission would help to assist and protect your right hook, as you orrigionally planned it.

I like your plan but as Jason C suggested you could combine those extra SMG squads with the company HQ and use it with the attack on the right. OTOH the other thing that you could do is to take the heavy squads out of the SMG platoons and put them under a HQ and use them for the direct 'red' line faint instead of a full platoon. The two rifle platoons could then be used on the right for cover fire and protecting the hook turn. I would recommend a couple more HMGs one more for the 'red' line overwatch group, and may be one farther on the left in the buildings on the left in front of the small 'A' flag.

I like this thread, I've enjoyed this discussion so far with a good map to help, hope it continues thanks. :cool:

[ January 08, 2006, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[Other Means]

Soviets can substitute TH's with RPG's for Shrecks at this stage IIRC.

[JasonC]

TRPs - no I would not bother. A German regimental FO is fast anyway, and yours is a popgun, not worth spending points on. As a boresight for the KT it might make sense, but at these ranges I'd expect it to be hitting regardless.

Russian THs - yes they get RPGs 2/3rds of the time and are worth taking, 3-6 of them. And they are quite effective, in delivery, hit chance, and KO of heavy armor. However, they still only have 40m range. That is good for infantry AT but a lot harder to use to get shots than the 100-150m effective range of a schreck.

[JasonC]

Here is a recommended Russian force on the other side, going with the IS-2 heavy armor idea, then taking infantry numbers for urban fighting.

3 IS-2s

mot SMG company

4th mot SMG platoon

pioneer company

6 tank hunters (4 veteran)

120mm radio FO

Gives 120 SMGs and 60 rifles, with 6 DC equipped squads and 4 RPG equipped THs expected, for infantry AT work. THs that wind up with just molotovs can help scout, along with a few 3 SMG half squads. THs with RPGs go with the SMG platoons to give them infantry AT ability. Pioneers go in 2 squad teams, one formed around their company HQ. 120mm FO with the SMG company HQ, reserves forming around him.

Gobs of infantry units, deep rather than all up front deployment. Only a few teams at the front windows, most rear windows, second line buildings, and the blocks one away from the open streets. Counterattack any incursion onto your side of the open areas with infantry, while skulking away from enemy armor.

[ErikinWest]

Ok here is the updated plan. All the lines are the same except one. The 'Pink line' contains the Company HQ + two squads of heavy SMG. The 'Pink line' will not (or at least its main job is not to) take point C because it lacks sufficient firepower, men, and ammo.

http://img322.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plan20sa.jpg

'Red line' and 'Blue line' will provide firepower to the enemy troops. The two lines will also have the HMG's and the Mortars.

'White and Green line' will get to the first layer of defenses, which is trees and light houses. They will be under the cover of smoke! You'll notice the stars on the buildings. Those buildings will prove a nasty spot for my troops to advance to, so the 'star' represents my StuH blowing the hell out of it

Once 'White and Green line' have taken point A, the other two Rifle platoons will do the same thing they did.

Ok, comments!

Erik

[JasonC]

Don't send "pink" wide right. One, it is a waste of the company HQ, he belongs with the main body. Remember, he makes all the platoon HQs around him much more flexible because he can pass them squads or take squads from them. Put him on the left. If you want to send a small platoon right, make it one of the standard SMG ones, and give one of its squads to the company HQ, too. The flanking weak platoon should take a schreck along. They might get a shot off with one, at least, and give you warning of anything coming at your right. As for the KT, position is fine but I'd hang back a bit farther at first. The wider the angle you show him, the more likely you are to lose it. Initially just sight down the main road, and advance only cautiously to the lateral open area. He will try to tag team you, getting your turret turned all the way left then hitting from right front, otherwise.

[ErikinWest]

Roger.

Thanks,

Erik

[juan_gigante]

I do agree that this map is biased towards whoever's coming in from the top. That said, I like your plan. I'd be interested to see how many of the craters in the white zone could fit a squad - if many could, that'd make advancing across a whole lot easier.

[Pirx]

I hope your opponent doesn't visit this forum!