Trench

[DekerBSB]

Hi

If i put a trench in terrains like woods, tall pines, etc. i receive the terrain+trench "cover bonus" or only the trench bonus?

Thanks...

[Thin Red Line]

I think you get 9% exposure with trench in any case, which is extremly low ; being entrenched into woods doesn't improve the protection.(and actually it's better to be in the open if arty starts to rain because of the tree bursts).

But i may be wrong other player will confirm.

[walpurgis nacht]

What has already been said here is all fine. One KEY advantage of being in the woods is you can sneak around, moving in and out as you like, and most importantly "hiding" to rest/rally as you like. If you a have a trench in the wide open . . . whenever you open up with whatever you have in it, is staying there until dead, and can't hide to rest/rally if the enemy is within 200 meters.

The best way around this is to find a "one layer deep" patch of woods or pines, and place the trench in the open, directly behind it . . .literally 1 foot away, so it is just barely in the open. This way you can fire through the trees, and still hide, move, and rest without being seen unless there are enemy units really close, and you avoid those nasty treebursts from arty and mortars.

Another refined trick is to actually place the trench as I described, except make it so that you can be in the trees or just out of the trees, while still in the trench(I'm talking horizontally aligned, crossing the trench through the tree is another more obvious thing you can do).

hope this helps.

[ April 30, 2003, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[Goose]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

The best way around this is to find a "one layer deep" patch of woods or pines, and place the trench in the open, directly behind it . . .literally 1 foot away, so it is just barely in the open. This way you can fire through the trees, and still hide, move, and rest without being seen unless there are enemy units really close, and you avoid those nasty treebursts from arty and mortars.

If you're 1 foot from the treeline, I'd think you would still be affected by a treeburst just inside the woodline? I.e. treebursts have an area effect which in this case extrends outside the woods.

Of course you only get treebursts from shells landing on the wooded side of the trench, so you get some protection.

[xerxes]

I've found the best trench positions are reverse slope. Ouch, those are really nasty. Protected from arty, HE and mg fire. Enemy infantry has to come at your trenchmen well within kill range. Almost impossible to assault.

[jtcm]

Does it make a difference whether you fire on a trench head on or from the side ? Does CM model enfilade fire effects on a trench ?

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by jtcm:

Does it make a difference whether you fire on a trench head on or from the side ? Does CM model enfilade fire effects on a trench ?

No.

In fact the CMBB trenches are giving good cover against actual wounds but they don't do anything against supression.

If you fire a MG to one point then 50 meters away people cannot move in the trench. That area of MG supression in CMBB doesn't seem to take terrain or other cover into account at all.

[JasonC]

Trench overrides other terrain types. A trench in woods gives the same cover as one in the open. Airbursts reduce cover in foxholes and trenches, whether the airburst occurs over the trench or just nearby. Trenches are difficult to spot even in open ground - you won't see them until 175-200m regardless of other terrain present.

The only real benefit to mixing trenches with other terrain types is covered entry and exit. This can be quite important when the men in the trench come under fire and panic. They tend to get up and run, and if the trench is in open ground that will rapidly lead to their elimination.

Scattered trees are enough to give good secondary cover for movement into and out of trenches. Brush and wheat aren't as robust, with "cover panic" problems still possible if men leave the trench.

Either, though, gives a larger "cover differential" than woods or pines. The problem with those is once attackers get into the same woods or pines, they are nearly as well protected for ordinary infantry firepower as the guys in the trench are, and can easily duke it out with you. Whereas in brush or wheat, the cover differential remains a factor of 4-5, and in scattered trees a factor of 2-3.

As for enfilade, for infantry and MG type fire it does no good. Even inside the same trench, the defenders still have cover. Consider the trench as including traverses and sandbagged dugouts, etc.

The one thing that does defeat trenches is HE landing inside, as opposed to near misses outside. Even a small HE charge (e.g. 81mm, even grenades) can cause a loss and deep morale dips if the round lands within the trench.

Since errors in the range are more common and larger than side to side errors, there is a marginal benefit to firing along the axis of the trench with an HE chucker, as opposed to infantry. A mortar e.g. will put more rounds inside the trench, instead of just short or just long and outside. The protection the trench provides to hits outside is considerable better.

I find the best use of trenches is in places away from woods or pines. Foxholes in those are good enough infantry cover not to need the help of a trench. They also tend to draw the attention of FOs, however.

Isolated trenches at long ranges (far back in other words), in open ground or large areas of marginal cover like wheat, can be good for stealthy heavy weapons positions like HMGs and light AA guns. If the enemy remains over 200m away he will not see the trench. MGs and small caliber guns can fire for ages and give only sound contacts as long as the enemy is ~300m away.

A single tile of brush does not work as well, because the enemy can guess where you are using the sound contact and the cover. Wheat lets you move if you must or if the men break. But the basic protection is switching to "hide" if enemies get close enough for a full ID.

For main infantry fighting positions in trenches, reverse slopes or large scattered tree areas work well. Keep in mind that the enemy will see the trenches even if no one is firing from them, once he gets within ~175m. Restricted LOS from ridges or distance through trees can prevent him from finding the trenches before getting closer.

Schrecks work very well with trenches, for later war Germans. Unlike woods and pines, trenches do not degrade your own shot accuracy. And the trench can be spotted only once attackers are in range of the schreck. Tank HE is the main counter to an IDed trench, so they tend to be "tank magnets".

[DekerBSB]

Thanks!

[Sarge Saunders]

My recent experience with trenches as the defender was generally good. I used them in conjunction with a line of wire, AP mines and TRPs in front of the trenches in scattered trees and tall pines. It worked out well overall: 6 squads, 1 HMG, 1 LMG all with bravery HQ bonuses held off 1 full soviet infantry battalion pluss assault guns. This was not all due to trenches- the TRPs where used to provide 105mm FO, 120mm FO, 150 IG, and 88mm FLAK support to the trench line.

My general observations:

- Trench infantry are supressed (to panic) by small arms fire just as easily as in foxholes...not sure if I expected that.

- Trench infantry take plenty of casualties to treebursts (as expected).

- Trenches seemed to be easier to spot at ~200 yards than foxholes.

- Trench infantry really hold strong against close assaults. They do well at breaking and killing the enemy infantry in the last 50 meters.

Some squads seemed to be able to recover from "pinned" status at the last moment to fire bursts into close assaulting enemy.

All in all, I'll buy trenches again. Very useful...

-Sarge