Armor penetration with no damage or casualties - How??

[Runyan99]

I see this in pretty much every CMBB scenario I play. An AP round penetrates or partially penetrates a tank and causes no casualties, and no damage to the tank.

I have seen this with many types of guns, from 37mm to 85mm, against all kinds of tanks including BT-7s, T-34s, PzIVE, and a late war German TD.

My question is - how can this possibly happen in real life, and is this realistic?

For my own part, I have a hard time imagining how an 85mm AP round traveling at 800m/s can go clean through the front of a German armored vehicle without ruining the day of the crew.

[ January 03, 2003, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Runyan99 ]

[Mikser]

Perhaps the round is almost completely 'defeated' by the armour plate and thus penetrates only a little, perhaps the HE burster(if the round has one) explodes too early, perhaps it enters into a part of the tank where it doesn't damage the crew, perhaps they get lucky? Who knows, but it is a hell of a lot better than, say, the 'Close Combat model' where every penetration ever achieved results practically always in a catastrophic explosion.

It should be more prevalent with small caliber ammo and those without HE charges, especially if they can only manage extremely meager partial penetration - I seem to recall a pre-war Soviet study indicating that the relatively low calibered guns of the time were estimated to require several shots to hit and several hits to penetrate and several penetrations to destroy.

[ January 03, 2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Mikser ]

[Panzertruppe]

Don't know if this will help, but.........I live near the Rock Island Arsenal(Moline IL) and they have a nice museum of armor. They have a Sherman that was knocked out during the Battle of the Bulge by antitank fire. You can see different types of penetration on this tank. Some shells penetrated but bounced off either hitting other parts of the tank or comming apart. Their are holes in the wheels..gunbarrel...turret...even threw the engine housing. I guess it all depends on where and how the shell hits. Thank god the developers at Big Time didn't use the "Close Combat" tables for figuring out armor penetration!

[MikeyD]

Penetration without kills makes for some real nail-biter games. I was re-re-playing "A Warm Place to Sleep" last night. A BT-7 60m from two Pz38Ts. The BT gets one-two-three-four hits then fires at the German tank. BOOOM! The German tank erupts like a volcano! Geepers! That's the difference between solid shot and explosive filler AP!

As for real-world penetrations, I heard one tale of an M48 being holed straight-through beneath the turret basket by a T54 (100mm gun!) and not even realising it til they had returned to Laager that evening and discovered the hole.

[ January 03, 2003, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[SgtMuhammed]

If you ever climb around in an armored vehicle you notice areas of dead space (unless you climb into a Leopard II, I don't know how those guys even breath). Not a lot but they are there. It is very possible to shoot through the armor but send a shot through empty space. Or through a piece of equipment that will not affect the fighting ability of the tank (through the toolbox for instance). While these would have to be counted as damage and fixed in real life or in a more strategic game they have no effect in the CM frame of reference. Think of it as being stabbed along the meaty part of the arm. It will hurt and require attention but will not immediatly put you down.

[Juardis]

Panzertruppe, I've been at that park and sat on that Sherm Bent barrel and all. I love that park. The museum rocks too with all the small arms in there.

Edit: my mother lives in Davenport, me in Charlotte. I don't get there too often.

[ January 03, 2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Juardis ]

[Panzertruppe]

Juardis........next time your in the Quad Cities look me up! We could play a little CM on my computers!