Help me assault fixed positions!

[Arzenal]

I keep getting my panzers ripped to shreds and its frustrating me.

My infantry moves so slow that I cant scout AT guns with them because the scenario will be over before I can reach the objectives.

So I roll panzers ahead of my infantry and they ALWAYS die to hidden tanks or AT guns.

Must the infantry always lead the tanks into unknown territory?

[Dave H]

You don't say how large the map is, or how long your battles are, or what kind of battles (assault, attack, or ME). You must allow time for at least some of your infantry to go first, or your panzers will continue to suffer. In a time pinch, use armored cars to lead the way, but don't expect them to survive. Assuming at least one crew member survives the destruction of the AC, you'll probably find out where the anti tank guns are hiding. Leading with your armor is usually a recipe for you completing the game with an infantry-only force. Which I've done more often than I care to think about.

Edited becaise your title was "assault fixed positions". That answers one question.

[ May 01, 2003, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Dave H ]

[Arzenal]

so you are basically saying that infantry must lead panzers into unknown territory where enemy tanks or AT guns reside?

[_Axe_]

No, I think my esteemed collegue Dave H is saying there are other ways, but sometimes you have to make a sacrifice to find out where the guns are.

There are other options, such as using smoke to cover your advance or, if possible, hitting suspected positions with mortar fire.

Make sure your AFVs aren't too crowded together either, because a couple of veteran gunners can do quick carnage. However, if you can hit them from different directions, you'll surpress them pretty effectively.

I'm sure better players than me will be along shortly with some more suggestions.

Chin up, eyes forward and march!

Cheers,

Jason

[dizee]

exactly the same bothers me too. if im doin my advance propperly, eg infantry leaps from pos to pos with breaks to exchange fire and/or to give the guys some time to catch some breath, i never get close to completet the objectives.

i hate scenarios with a tight timescedule

takes away alot from the tactical depth imho...

[Mud]

You usually do want infantry up front. Not only can you usually afford to absorb more hits with infantry than with armor, but once you do engage guns with vehicles (and an opponent might well have a good AT gun with keyhole-sighting and an armor-only cover arc to prevent premature tripping of an ambush), any infantry that you can bring to bear on the target can help suppress the gun. Suppressed guns fire less, and thus should be less likely to claim additional victims.

You're also bringing more eyeballs. On extreme FOW, sending only one or two vehicles in a probe might get 'em destroyed before you even get a contact, let alone an ID. Said eyeballs may also snag threats that you should be able to deal with much more readily with infantry, such as infantry with 'shrecks. Vehicles under fire might button up, and then -- at least those without a cupola -- they won't be seeing much at all.

[MikeyD]

I have to admit I've started more than my fair share of large scenarios all enthused for the battle... until I spot the "1 of 25" move counter at the bottom. Gulp! Just 25 moves to get from here to there? That's not even a half hour of real-world maneuvering! If I had my druthers, I'd rather have the time to send out squads methodically poking through every patch of woods along the route!

But the funny thing is, events often conspire to make the scenarios playable to that timeframe. I sometimes have to squeeze every last turn out of the variable endgame clock to get the job done, but I'm rarely stuck halfway to objective.

[Ant]

Using binocular equipped units to observe potential enemy positions can also be worthwhile. two or three turns spent observing with binoculars can sometimes reveal otherwise hidden enemy units.

[ May 01, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Ant ]

[JasonC]

The approach to contact is a difficult part of the attacker's job, no question. It is relatively easy to accomplish with tons of time, if you know how to do it. When you don't have time, losses are going to be higher.

Generally you should plan on spending the first 10 minutes of any ordinary attack QB just advancing to full ID ranges. This can be an unpleasant experience, with the defenders doing most of the shooting and your men largely unable to reply effectively. You start getting your revenge once your leading units make it to within about 200m of the forward defenders.

Normally infantry should lead. Light armor may seem a natural alterative, but the lightest stuff actually is quite bad at "point", unless the ground is wide open and the enemy is infantry and guns only. Even then, a medium tank is often better. In some eras, the right light tank can be just thick enough to do the job, without risking more.

Armor scouting turns on the spotting distance to various enemy gun calibers, the penetration ability of those calibers, and the thickness of the armor available. Thin vehicles can be killed by very light guns - ATRs, 20mm FLAK - that are practically impossible to spot at range. So you lose the scout without taking out the shooter.

But a medium tank is thick enough to bounce shells from the light guns. It can still be killed by a heavy gun. But when a heavy gun fires, everybody within a kilometer will see it. So real tank that is also overwatched by numerous other tanks, or other long range weapons (mortars, guns of your own, FOs) can't as easily be killed without loss.

The defender typically can kill the leading tank. But will lose a gun in reply. And after that, another round begins, with the defender short that gun. Not all his hidden AT assets will cover one area of the field. When he runs out there, a medium tank will get closer and live.

Defending armor can be a taller order, sometimes. Because it relocates after hitting the leading tank. If it is to thick from the front to kill, you are in serious trouble, and attacking is very hard. Otherwise, it is a question of small tactics, overwatching the right spots. The weakness of defending armor is it is much easier to spot.

The thing to realize in all of this is that the preferred infantry stoppers at range are weapons with low "signatures", that can fire repeatedly without being IDed. That means MGs and light guns. But those are exactly the weapons medium tanks can defeat. So you should try to coordinate infantry and tank approaches.

The defender then has an "escalation dilemma". He can harass and pin the infantry with his MGs and light guns, not revealing anything larger. A tank or two will then try to close to full ID range of the nearest sound contact. To stop them, the defender has to pull out something larger. And whether armor or large caliber gun, "larger" in AT ability terms means easier to spot fully at long range.

You should not advance with the armor forward before you have sound contacts to direct it against, however. The defender can just hold fire, until he has a perfect "assymmetric" shot (meaning he can see the point vehicle with large AT weapon, but attacker overwatching vehicles or heavy weapons in cover farther away have no LOS to the shooter).

As for getting the infantry closer, the key is to use short "advance" movement orders, by bounds, from cover to cover. Limit the number of units exposed in the open at any one time, and if under heavy fire limit the portion of even those moving (some pause, trading off the "moving" role). This gives units time to rally between occasions of being shot at.

Of course, it also slows you down. You have to judge when to move to a "creeping" approach of short advances by bounds, and when to use the faster "traveling" approach of everyone using "move" simultaneously, with the front guys only on "move to contact".

Often you can tell which to use by the typical size of set up zones and terrain analysis. It is a time waster to "creep" over dead ground areas. Making the fullest use of dead space behind rises and large blocks of trees is critical to speeding the early advance. The most open maps don't provide any, but medium woods or medium hilliness settings will.

You should not get too discouraged during the lopsided 5-10 minute window, when plenty of defenders can see you and so far you only have sound contacts back. Do not throw units forward recklessly trying to "save" units under fire. Do not waste ammo firing at sound contacts, or direct barrages on merely suspected enemy positions to "do something".

The enemy is blowing ammo, and your infantry will rally. Even if one platoon looks seriously messed up at minute 7, understand that 5-10 minutes is an eternity in rally terms. Once you get under cover or others get close enough to allow you to fire back, even thoroughly pinned infantry will recover.

At long range, the defender does not have the ammo depth or number of shooters to wipe you out without reply. His squad infantry is weak at long range, and its ammo is limited. Only his heavy weapons (MGs, mortars, light guns) can sustain fire at you for long period. They mostly pin rather than kill, even men in the open. Men in cover they barely hurt at all.

Large caliber HE does kill, but defending FOs are severely limited in ammo terms (better to absorb it soon with time to rally, than late). Other large caliber HE shooters (on map guns, tanks) will be spotted even at long range. Your mortars, FOs, and tanks can take those out quickly, limiting the damage they can do.

Watch the morale of the infantry when closing. Do not try to push as rapidly as possible across wide open ground areas. Only a few will make it and those will wind up close to the enemy, and be outshot. Instead, gauge how hard you push by the morale state of the men. When most are pinned to cautious and some are panicking, stop pushing. Use the nearest cover and give them time to rally.

Platoons with some good order, some alerted, only a few shaken, can continue to advance, with the lowest morale state units pausing a minute while the others continue. Always navigate towards cover, preferably cover you know is not enemy occupied, or at least not in fortified positions (i.e. outside the enemy set up areas). When you reach an area of cover, give the men a minute or two to rest and rally, if they are tiring or shaken.

It is work to "shepherd" a company through an opposed approach. But it will pay off. Leading platoons will get close enough to fully ID defending heavy weapons, or will run across squad infantry platoons ahead of those within full ID range. Such platoon positions can be targeted by your FOs as soon as they are located. Enemy bunkers, tanks, and large caliber guns can be dueled at range during the approach. Heavy weapons in full ID range you should target with light mortars or individual tanks.

Once you are making headway into his long range shooters with reply fire of your own, movement in the open ground areas closer to your start line gets significantly easier. Typically minutes 10-15 see leading infantry rally inside cover already reached, while infantry farther back can finally maneuver at walking speed (all units with orders, "move" or "advance", making ~100m per minute). This should get all your remaining good order infantry into the fight in the 15-20 minute window.

That may seem awful tight on the clock in a 25 minute game. It can be. But remember, most squads can blow the bulk of their available ammo in about 5 minutes, and even pure rifle squads can blow all of theirs at range in 10. No question it is all easier if you have 45 minutes. But often, the defender will collapse within 10 minutes of your infantry reaching firefighting range. His squad ammo won't hold out, even if his squad morale does.

I hope this helps.

[V]

Use halftracks ahead of your armor. Use smoke. It depends from scenario to scenario.

[WineCape]

My God Jason,

You never cease to amaze me with your typing skills, never mind the reasoning

Useful indeed

Sincerely,

Charl

[V]

Originally posted by WineCape:

My God Jason,

You never cease to amaze me with your typing skills, never mind the reasoning

Useful indeed

Sincerely,

Charl

I have come to believe that Jason C does not exist outside of this forum.

I tend to think that he is a manifestation of BFC. A computer program which spits out strategy based on millions of documented resources...

[Tank Ace]

Have your panzers "hunt" and put a sqd of Inf on ur tanks so that when action starts panzers fire and inf disembark to kill the enemy firing.

[Phantom Captain]

Originally posted by V:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WineCape:

My God Jason,

You never cease to amaze me with your typing skills, never mind the reasoning

Useful indeed

Sincerely,

Charl

I have come to believe that Jason C does not exist outside of this forum.

I tend to think that he is a manifestation of BFC. A computer program which spits out strategy based on millions of documented resources...

</font>

[V]

Originally posted by Lord Dragon:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by V:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WineCape:

My God Jason,

You never cease to amaze me with your typing skills, never mind the reasoning

Useful indeed

Sincerely,

Charl

I have come to believe that Jason C does not exist outside of this forum.

I tend to think that he is a manifestation of BFC. A computer program which spits out strategy based on millions of documented resources...

</font>

[V]

Originally posted by TANK ACE:

Have your panzers "hunt" and put a sqd of Inf on ur tanks so that when action starts panzers fire and inf disembark to kill the enemy firing.

That might not help too much if the AT guns are 300 meters away. The infantry will just be caught in the open.

Plus, the squad of infantry can be mangled and broken if the AT rounds lands where they are riding. Its happened to me many times.

Of course, this is all highly subjective. It depends on the situation and the scenario.

[Fishu]

I know that the best tool against ATG's is either a huge caliber gun or medium mortars...

Just hard to get the 150mm IG into position to kill ATG though

Although once in the positoin, it's merry bang bang.

Medium mortars however.. easy to set up quickly and ATG crews will be running in a turn, or two at most.

Nothing beats 120mm mortar spotter though :>

inexpensive and effective at driving away any pesky ATG...