Russian SMG vs German troops in 1941

[Mortar Man]

After getting my arse handed to me by Bruceov's SMG company in a meeting engagement tcp/ip game I went back and had a look at the unit selections for axis and allies in 1941. The most SMG's any german squad has is 1 SMG and 2 LMG in a motorized squad.

In the tcp/ip game I set up an ambush with about 5 rifle squads. I managed to wipe out one russian smg squad, but then the other 3 russian squads started firing, my troops panicked and I got totally mauled. At 40 metres my 100 firepower rating per squad was no match compared to his 400. All my squads lost 80-100% men, while he lost either 0 or 1 man in his remaining squads.

Could anyone suggest a tactic for Germans to take a flag held by Russian SMG squads in woods in this time period, considering the wooded area is surrounded by 100-odd metres of clear ground?

I can think of a few tactics myself, such as heavy artillery use followed by assaults with units holding plenty of grenades. However artillery costs buy points leaving you weaker in other areas such as guns and troops to stop those pesky KV-1's. I also tried an equivalent number of ZB30 LMG in a QB to simulate my own machine gun squad, but you have to spend twice the number of points compared to a Russian SMG squad and they still cant put out the same amount of firepower at 40m. Perhaps someone more experienced than me has better ideas, or am I screwed if the russian reaches the victory flag before me?

[ February 18, 2003, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: Mortar Man ]

[walpurgis nacht]

It is a good question. I have spent some serious hotseat study time on this one.

If we are strictly talking infantry vs. infantry, there is little you can do without seriously overwhelming numbers.

The key weakness of Russian smg troops is the low ammo load. Make them spend it if you cannot suppress them with any toys or HE chucking support.

If you have the option of picking your own units, go for the Finnish "Sissi" squads. They have the best 40m punch available to the axis in '41. Problem is, as good as the Sissi are (they also have demo), they are still no match for the Russian smgs.

If you can get 200-250 meters away from them, smgs are virtually harmless. With riflemen you can engage safely at this range, with a superior ammo load.

When a scout encounters an smg squad, that scout is dead. Since virtually everyone buys smgs as the Russians in QBs, choose your weakest squad(s), split them, and accept the fact that they're probing as kamikazes.

Once you do find them . . . .

Flamethrowers. These are fantastic little tools if you use them right. But you have to be clever and know how to maneuver them close. German flamethrowers have a shorter range (30-32 meters I think) than Russian flamethrowers, but they have a much better ammo load (9). Sneak that flamethrower into range and "area target" the known SMG position (keep the flamethrower just a meter or two away from its LOS to the smg position). Flamethrowers do little in the way of casualties (relative to their own cost), but the flames will panic every squad they hit (even if they're elite), and the flames spread wide. Once they are panicked it doesn't matter what squads you choose to clean them up, they will not be able to fire back. So they will rout quickly if you apply smalls arms pressure immediately following the flamethrower attack. Otherwise, they recover quickly from the flames, with little permanent damage.

Demo. If you bought pioneers or Sissi squads you can sneak them within 30 meters of the smgs, and "area target" the enemy position. The demo will fly, and if you get one close enough, that's it for the smgs. This is generally a little less effective than flamethrowers in that you cannot always rely on the pioneers aim with the demo to be all that great. Close is good, but a direct hit with demo is the end of a squad.

Again, always be ready to mow down any routing or withdrawing squads that pop up in retreat.

One turn of any kind of mortar fire directly on the smgs will suppress them very well.

Last and generally worst is MG fire. Make sure to "area target" the enemy position if he decides to stay hidden. Keep the MG fire on him for at least a full turn before you send anyone in to "wake him up". You want him to be fully pinned . . . even one ammo burst at 40 meters from a Russian smg platoon is doom.

Let's see . . . that's all I can think of. Otherwise, pound the bastards with HE.

Hope this helps,

Walpurgis

[ February 18, 2003, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[Tigrii]

Like Walpurgis said, if you stand off and force a medium-range firefight, they lose ammo without inflicting damage. On the other hand, it can be difficult to get a FT up there as it is slow and a high-priority target. One of my favorite ways to deal with this is use 150mm HE. Tow up a 150 on a HT or send up a gunship like a bison or grille, and a few rounds devestates the enemy infantry. Walpurgis actually did this to me in an IP game. I held the flag with some SMGs, he towed up a 150, blasted away, and bye-bye SMGs.

[Mortar Man]

Thanks for the advice. Today I set up a few QB to test out what you said.

Demo charges work excellent. The big problem is maneuvering them into position to be effective. You have to decimate the entire smg companies on the first go, and make sure that when you are sneaking that you are not detected. If an aggressive Russian player does an advance order then you will be wiped out. If you get sound contacts while sneaking and the russian player does area target the next turn, all your troops will become pinned instantly and soon after they will rout.

I found FT's to be rather unreliable - they can usually get off one shot, but if any other squad spots them besides the squad being flamed, they are dead. They might be better off used as a defensive measure for the throwing demo charge squads should the enemy decide to storm you with hidden troops not affected by the mass explosions.

Another problem is cost for troops. Assuming no maneuvering difficulties as stated above, you need two pioneer platoons vs one SMG company. This is 468 vs 267 points. To reduce the cost you can choose mechanised pioneers, which come with 1 man less per squad but same number of demo charges, and you can also get rid of flamethrowers. This comes out to 272 vs 267 points. Not bad for troops that are also capable of fighting long range or destroying tanks.

I also gave flammpanzers a try. They can totally decimate a company of SMG's in seconds, and have an almost zero % chance of KO - SMG fire cannot penetrate the armor at all, and molotov coctails rarely do enough damage. Probably better to get rid of the FT's in your platoons and replace them with flammpanzers if the terrain suits it.

I will try 150mm next

[flamingknives]

Just to reiterate some points that others have made: If you can choose the engagement range, don't press the attack home. Stand off between 100-200m and introduce the Russians to belt-fed LMGs . The return fire is of little consequence.

Regarding the 150mm IG - it is so cheap in '41-'42 as to be ridiculous. (no HC round)

Chomps up infantry nicely though.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned this yet. Try scads of Tank Hunter teams. Although there are only 2 men per team, they're each armed with an MP40 and if you have enough of them you can get multiple fires from different directions at the one target, which usually does the trick.

The downside is that they're very brittle as it's very easy to lose 2 men & then that's the end of the ball game for that team. Still, if there are enough of them it's also no huge loss either plus you have the added bonus that if the Soviets have purchased a number of tanks, they can do a number on them as well in ambush.

Regards

Jim R.

[JasonC]

THs are very expensive to use as ordinary infantry. They cost over twice as much as Russian SMGers per man. I don't think they are any solution if a crowd of Russian SMGs have grabbed some large woods or established themselves in a given cluster of buildings.

The "stand off at range" idea works only if they aren't in good cover. They don't have to reply at all. If the range is 150m and upward, LMG and rifle infantry does not have the ammo to seriously hurt decent quality men only 10-20% exposed. (Green in scattered trees are one thing, regulars or vets in woods something else). Once you are low on ammo, they can come kill you any time they feel like it, so running dry plinking at them at range is no answer. Works OK if they are only in wheat-brush, or have to advance on you over open ground.

What makes SMGs effective is that infantry already does its greatest damage in close. It is the close covered areas you need infantry to deal with. Open ground has MG teams, tanks, support weapons. In that respect they are "concentrated essence of infantry", in combined arms terms. Their ammo limits aren't awful if they completely refrain from firing more than about 80m.

[Redwolf]

You could also retreat completely into the woods, shifting the fight to hand-to-hand fighting.