Bone_Vulture Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I'm currently playing a rather heated 2000pt ME against Prinz Eugen, and have witnessed a rather annoying phenomena: the light SPW 250/9 recon halftracks are extremely cheap at spending 20mm AC ammo. During the first turns, one of the halftracks encounters a light Soviet armored car (armed with a mere MG, was it a BA-20?), and has a clean shot for nearly half a minute. Does the brave German crew pepper the filthy bolsheviks to oblivion with remorseless 20mm round salvos? No, they settle on serving absolutely ineffective MG fire. WHY?! The Soviet Armored car was indentified fully, within a distance of 150 meters, and the halftrack had at least six "shots" of 20mm AP ammo. [ January 21, 2003, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Bone_Vulture ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 did yuo h/track have a height advantage? 6 rounds of AP probably means teh AI wil try to conserve that ammo for worthwile targets - particularly ones that can kill the h/track itself, which the BA-20 can't. So if you had a height advantage it (the AI) might well've decided it would save the good stuff and go for a top shot with the MG into the open turret of the foe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 7,92x57 Ss can punch through 8mm of armour at 200m, the Crew decided to conserve main gun ammo when the MG was perfectly capable of doing the job. SmK(H) (tungsten AP 7,92x57) bullet had a penetration power of almost 20mm of plain steel at a range of 500m (90° impact angle). Last troop issue of the round was Feb 1943. Don't think CMBB models this round for MG34/42. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eden Smallwood Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 You didn't mention if you're using an arc. Remember that a Cover *Armor* Arc will ignore an Armored Car- a car, (even an HT!), is not "armor" enough to be, er, "Armor". Eden 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Rifle calibre MG's in CMBB do have a bit of AP capability - dunno that I'd expect them to KO an a/c at 150m through the armour tho'.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted January 21, 2003 Author Share Posted January 21, 2003 No, I wasn't using an "armor arc", but that's good to know in the future. I don't think CM models any sort of special MG ammo, and I personally haven't witnessed a Soviet armored car ever taking damage from German machineguns. I wish there was some sort of "force fire" command, that'd make the unit ignore ammo conservation: perhaps at a price of higher basic ammo consumption and more dramatic moral impact when the unit runs out of ammo. [EDIT] I'm not sure of the height advantage - my HT might've been slightly higher. Also, I forgot to mention that my HT didn't follow it's orders and constantly reversed back to safety, as if facing a tank or something. The legendary "IS-2 behavior", I say. [ January 21, 2003, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Bone_Vulture ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engy Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Pardon the intrusion, but could you please edit your subject line (which can be done by editing your first post) to clean up the language? It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted January 21, 2003 Author Share Posted January 21, 2003 Originally posted by engy: Pardon the intrusion, but could you please edit your subject line (which can be done by editing your first post) to clean up the language? It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!www.vanillaice.com 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jussi Köhler Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Hehe, good change Vulture 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted January 21, 2003 Author Share Posted January 21, 2003 Originally posted by Jussi Köhler: Hehe, good change Vulture Thank you, my fellow Finn! Now, back to the topic - or is there anything else to add? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Originally posted by Eden Smallwood: You didn't mention if you're using an arc. Remember that a Cover *Armor* Arc will ignore an Armored Car- a car, (even an HT!), is not "armor" enough to be, er, "Armor". EdenIs that true?! I'm not sure how I missed it but that's a crucial piece of information. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrapin Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 If the MG on that halftrack is the same as the HMGs carried by infantry, then the HMG can definately take out that car. I've done this numerous times. It takes a few turns if you're unlucky, but it can do it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skolman Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I have seen the same problem in a more dangerous situation. In a tank battle one of my medium battletanks (can´t remember which one it was) refused to fire it`s maingun at an opposing stug III....the stug had in fact more intellect and fired two AP rounds on my tank...enough to destroy it. btw my tank had enough AP HE and c shots to fire... Oi Skolman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted January 21, 2003 Author Share Posted January 21, 2003 Originally posted by Terrapin: If the MG on that halftrack is the same as the HMGs carried by infantry, then the HMG can definately take out that car. I've done this numerous times. It takes a few turns if you're unlucky, but it can do it.I think it's the standard MG34/42..... [EDIT] How is it possible that the "heavy" MG34/42 has a better armor penetration than the standard model? Aren't they supposed to fire the same round? [ January 21, 2003, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Bone_Vulture ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: No, I wasn't using an "armor arc", but that's good to know in the future. I don't think CM models any sort of special MG ammo, and I personally haven't witnessed a Soviet armored car ever taking damage from German machineguns. I wish there was some sort of "force fire" command, that'd make the unit ignore ammo conservation: perhaps at a price of higher basic ammo consumption and more dramatic moral impact when the unit runs out of ammo. [EDIT] Again the standred 7,92x57 Ss can punch through 8mm of armour at 200m. MG will take out a BA20 that only has an armour basis of 6mm all round. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demoss Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 I don't think CM models any sort of special MG ammo, and I personally haven't witnessed a Soviet armored car ever taking damage from German machineguns. I have (BA-6 taken out by MG 34), but you need to be aware that you do NOT get the standard penetration messages for MG fire against light armor. So MG kills can be hard to spot without looking at the firing MG's list of kills. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted January 22, 2003 Author Share Posted January 22, 2003 Originally posted by Bastables: Again the standred 7,92x57 Ss can punch through 8mm of armour at 200m. MG will take out a BA20 that only has an armour basis of 6mm all round.Well, this is just what didn't happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bastables: Again the standred 7,92x57 Ss can punch through 8mm of armour at 200m. MG will take out a BA20 that only has an armour basis of 6mm all round.Well, this is just what didn't happen.</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted January 22, 2003 Author Share Posted January 22, 2003 Is it just a case of "conflicting opinion" between me and the AI? Why does the computer has to use the halftrack's MG which might barely damage the enemy armored car, instead of firing a couple of 20mm round salvos that'd be almost guaranteed to do the job? The halftrack starts with around 14 HE and 6 AP "shots": I ask what's the point, if these rounds are never used (in the same match I witnessed another SPW 250/9 fire at a pinned infantry unit some 20 meters away without using HE 20mm ammo, but only the MG). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: Is it just a case of "conflicting opinion" between me and the AI? Why does the computer has to use the halftrack's MG which might barely damage the enemy armored car, instead of firing a couple of 20mm round salvos that'd be almost guaranteed to do the job? The halftrack starts with around 14 HE and 6 AP "shots": I ask what's the point, if these rounds are never used (in the same match I witnessed another SPW 250/9 fire at a pinned infantry unit some 20 meters away without using HE 20mm ammo, but only the MG).Yes because the MG is not worthless versus the BA20, it can "kill" it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted January 22, 2003 Author Share Posted January 22, 2003 Originally posted by Bastables: Yes because the MG is not worthless versus the BA20, it can "kill" it.*mutter* Worthless AI.... *mutter* 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jKMkIII Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 So if your HT had 20mm AP and MG to choose from. Both go through AC without much problem, so only reason why don't get kill is that those solid shots do not hit anything important. And with MG it would seem more likely to hit because you get more shots. Perhaps if your HT would have had 20mm HE ammo it could have been more usefull to use it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted January 23, 2003 Author Share Posted January 23, 2003 Originally posted by jKMkIII: So if your HT had 20mm AP and MG to choose from. Both go through AC without much problem, so only reason why don't get kill is that those solid shots do not hit anything important. And with MG it would seem more likely to hit because you get more shots. Perhaps if your HT would have had 20mm HE ammo it could have been more usefull to use it. *Sigh* At ranges around 100-200 meters, the 20mm gun is so accurate that the second salvo is almost guaranteed to hit. I still underline that the MG kill chance is pitiful, the HT should use it's main weapon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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