This just in, Wehrmacht develops laser-guided Panzer munitions and a Panzer VI Tiger

[AOK. 11]

Bear with me friends, and listen to my narrative….

My narrative will explain my thread topic…

(if your out there MG42, this is not the events in our game, it happened AGAIN)

3000 QB August 1943

Central Russian steppe, large map, dawn, clear weather, little tree cover

Perfect tank country

I command Red Army troops

I won’t go into too much detail, as it would take away from my point. The battle progresses, and at one point I am in a tough spot. At one point on the map, an enemy Panther and a Panzer III (a later model with 50+20mm and 50mm/L60 KwK, I will therefore call it an Ausf L) are both in an excellent position overlooking a large portion of the battlefield. The main engagement is underway to the northwest of this point and apparently, we both had the same idea to move around each other’s flank, thus meeting. The armor forces available in the area were a lend-lease M3A1 Stuart, one SU-76M self-propelled gun, one T-34/76 model 1943, two T-34/57’s, and one SU-85 tank destroyer.

My armor was concentrated behind a ridge, running some 250 meters and providing complete cover. I had spotted the Panzers when my Stuart went over the top and spotted them, before retreating. The Panzers were at a range of about 900 meters on a ridge of their own; however, the crest of my ridge and his ridge were fairly similar, eliminating any height advantage. The enemy had advanced forward to the downward slope, past any hull-down position. I decided to force the issue, as I needed to eliminate these panzers and advance on his flank; while any delay would be advantageous to the enemy. I decided to attempt to draw the Panther and Panzer IIIL by sending the Stuart and T-34/76 as bait. After one crests the ridge where my forces were, the terrain was suitable for quick movement, as it was a long stretch of flat steppe. Both the Stuart and T-34/76 are ideal for this action, with max speeds of 36 and 34 mph respectively. The Stuart would advance northwest, the T-34/76 northeast, as fast as they could go. After about 12 seconds my other forces: one SU-76M self propelled gun, two T-34/57’s, and one SU-85 tank destroyer would crest the ridge, (about 60m apart, SU-76M on left, SU-85 in center, and T-34/57’s on right) and engage the enemy. Shortly after the main force came into range, the Stuart and T-34/76 would carry out their shoot/scoot orders, firing a round before advancing further on the enemy’s flank. The plan was to draw the enemy’s weapons away from the ridge, then bring in the main force and quickly destroy the Panzer IIIL, then overwhelm and shoot the Panther into submission.

Here is where my topic of laser guided munitions come into play…

Things began as planned, the Stuart and T-34/76 moved swiftly over the crest of the ridge, and rushed into the vast steppe; quickly reaching top speed. As planned, the enemy armor began to take the bait: The Panther’s 75mm/70 KwK following the T-34/76, the Panzer IIIL’s 50mm/60 KwK following the M3A1 Stuart, both guns moving away from the ridge. I was confident that things would out well….

After following the target for about 5 seconds, the Panther fired his first round. It was a direct hit on the side of the turret of the T-34/76. The ammunition cache was set alight and the entire tank, including the crew, was obliterated. Apparently, achieving first round accuracy on a target at 900m and moving at 34 mph is no problem for a Panther.

Meanwhile, after he had tracked the Stuart for about 5 seconds the Panzer IIIL also fired his first round. Again, it was a direct hit on the side turret of the Stuart. Three of the crew were killed and the rest attempted to bail out. However, they had difficulty, as the Stuart continued to roll about 100 meters after it was hit. The crew was about to bail when the second 50mm round penetrated into the ammunition cache causing it to explode, killing the survivors. Apparently, achieving first round accuracy on a target at 900 meters and moving at 36 mph is not problem for a Panzer IIIL.

With the bait destroyed, the Panther and Panzer IIIL were waiting when my remaining armor came into range. You can guess what happened.

My opponent said both panzer crews were veterans.

We all have much respect for an experienced and well trained tank crew; however, is what I have described in anyway accurate as to the abilities of historical men and machine? Any thoughts would be appreciated…

Now on to cloaking devices…

I was playing an average CMBB PBEM scenario in autumn 1943, playing again with the Soviets. At one point I was in position to achieve a victory, having been able to move a significant armored force into the deep flank of the enemy undetected. I was about to spring my ambush and crush the enemy when things went wrong.

All of the sudden and Panzer VI Tiger appeared in the complete rear of my forces that had penetrated into enemy lines. No warning, no sound contact, nothing. At the end of one turn he is not there, at the beginning of the next he appears. Needless to say, I was not prepared for this. Soviet armor is not designed to withstand rounds from an 88mm/56 KwK fired at 25 meters. All available weapons turned on the beast but the Tiger just smiled and continued to fire point blank 88mm rounds, ravaging anything that moved. As one can imagine, the slaughter was horrible. After the Tiger had put ten tanks out of action, the beast turned his 88 and machine guns on the unfortunate crews who had so far survived the massacre. Nobody escaped. I am not fond of Panzer VI Tigers equipped with cloaking devices, able to teleport to any position without emitting any sound. :confused:

Obviously, this incident was a reinforcement that occurred at an inopportune time. However, this kind of incident can completely ruin a game, and reinforcement should have some kind of proximity adjustment rules.

Any thoughts on these two incidents are appreciated…

[Pzman]

In the second case were you playing a Scenario? If so it may have been a misplace reinforcement, (or not).

As for the first case, I'd say you just had bad luck. I've seen many times where the Panther and Panzer III would miss those shots several times, and never hit the Soviet tanks at all. Considering that most German tanks sights were made to fire at targets around 800-1200m's, I don't think its unrealistic at all though. IIRC the Germans often pre-set their guns to around 800-900m's.

[YankeeDog]

The reinforcement issue is a known one, and perhaps one that could be fixed in the new engine. It's also a scenario design issue -- in general, scenario designers should avoid having reinforcments appear in locations that could be overrun by enemy.

As for the former laser-guided munition issue, it's impossible to gauge how realistic the engine is here based on one incident. If you re-loaded the turn, ran it 20 times or so and then posted the results, we would have some idea of just how much of what happened was luck, and what was actual performance.

*** MINOR SPOILERS AHEAD - JAEGERMEISTER SCENARIO***

A little story: The first time I played CMBB, it was the Jagermeister scenario. Early on, two of my IS-2s crested the ridge and spotted 2 Panzers at about 700m range - one Tiger and one Panther, I think. All 4 tanks fired more or less simultaneously. One of the German Tank's shells bounced off an IS-2 turret, the other missed. Both my IS-2s hit and both Panzers were destroyed. "Wow!" I thought. "IS-2s kick @ss!." I went on to win this scenario quite handily due in no small part to this very favorable initial exchange.

As I built more experience playing CMBB, though, I discovered that IS-2s do not, in fact, kick @ss. Or at least they don't kick @ss in head-to-head fights with Panthers and Tigers.

The moral of the story: Almost anything can happen in CM once, and if you play enough, it probably will. Don't base your conculsions on one, or even two or three incidents, or you many in for a rude surprise when the law of averages swings things the other way.

To adapt your example: *Your* Pather will take an entire turn to score a single hit on a bogged halftrack at point blank range on a clear summer day. *His* T-60, OTOH, will score a disabling gun hit from 2km range on your Jagdtiger firing through a patch of scattered trees and the corner of a building, and while both vehicles are moving tangent to each other at flank speed. . .

Cheers,

YD

[Brent Pollock]

...and I'm guessing the T-34 and Stuart were going slower than their max speed, which should be Paved Road speed, not Open Ground speed.

Or did you "guesstimate" their speed based on the game clock and tiles traversed?

[37mm]

It is not 'bad luck'… first shot accuracy is too high in CM.

I've repeatedly seen moving targets penetrated first time at ranges of well over a kilometer.

It helps if you play with only green or conscript tanks (the new problem however will be command delays).

You'll then find it possible for T-34's to close the engagement range without being obliterated in seconds.

[flamingknives]

That's a bit sweeping. Care to justify it?

[Panzer76]

If anything first hit chances are too low.

[Hensworth]

I agree with the fact that hitting a fast moving target is too easy, based on 2 experiences.

There is a scenario (don't remember what it's called, it may have been on the CD) where 4 Nashorns guard a ridge against an oncoming wave of Soviet armor.

The Nashorns had no trouble decimating the Soviet tanks well before they got to within 1000m.

The second time was when I needed to do a test to see how many vanilla T-34s it took to kill a Tiger by rushing it.

I came out at 9 when the Tiger was regular. The T-34s started 800m from the Tiger, in cover. When the Tiger was better than regular, 9 was not even enough. The accuracy seemed to be unaffected, but the regular crew would reload that much slower allowing the T-34s to get close enough.

The game models the difficulty of shooting on the move, but not the difficulty of hitting a fast moving target. A rotten state of affairs if you like to play Soviets.

[flamingknives]

Are the targets closing or crossing the line of fire?

Bear in mind that gun crews were trained to engage moving targets, and if speed and range can be ascertained, setting the necessary lead isn't too hard.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Sgt_Kelly:

There is a scenario (don't remember what it's called, it may have been on the CD) where 4 Nashorns guard a ridge against an oncoming wave of Soviet armor.

The Nashorns had no trouble decimating the Soviet tanks well before they got to within 1000m.

This is the same scen were most people complain that their Nashorns never hit anything and dies fast..

This is a subjective thing, and from reading rexfords posts about hit probability it seems clear to me that the hit chances, especially first round ones are too LOW in the game.

This is my subjective opinion after over 4 years of playing this game on a regular basis against other human opponents, take it for what its worth.

[YankeeDog]

Again, if you really think there is a problem with the modeling in the game of any particular aspect of combat, set up what you think is a representative turn that tests the issue in question, run it 20-30 times, and record the results. Then post your results with your opinion of what you think realistic results should have been and what your basis is for this opinion.

Battlefront has been more than willing to listen to input from players in the past, and I certainly think the game is more realistic and better as a result of some of the spirited debates here on the forums. But you need to do much more than just engage in wild speculation based on a couple of in-game incidents to catch the ear of BFC.

Cheers,

YD