Luchesa Valley Info?

[SFJaykey]

I just read an article on Operation Mars, the failed Soviet offensive against the Rshev salient in November-December 1942. I think it was a condensed version of the book on the subject by David Glanz. Seems like there is lots of good scenario fodder there...in particular the Russian assault up the Luchesa River valley looks like it could be scaled to make a good CMBB battle, or series of battles. Problem was the article dealt with the entire huge operation and there are a lot of details left to fudge... Can anyone tell me:

How much and what variants of armor did the Grossdeutschland commit at the Luchesa Valley? I hope Michael Dorosh checks in on this thread: his excellent website on the GD gives some ideas as to the tanks in the GD armored batallion at about this time, but I wonder about the specific variants of Stugs and Marders. Also, I am wondering if the title of "Grenadier Regiment" means I should use Panzergrenadier unit types, though at this time the GD was still an "Infantry Division."

Suggestions on the Russian Oob would also be welcome...my sources put the armor mix of tank corps attacking elsewhere in the operation at about 55% T-34, 40% T-70, and 5% KV, but I have no direct OoB info on the 3rd Tank Corps, which struck up the Luchesa, or on specific variants.

Any suggestions for maps of the area (or elsewhere about the Rshev salient) that depict terrain at a scale that would be useful for CMBB, or detailed accounts that would be useful in designing the scenario? (MD: what is the scale of the little Luchesa map on your website?)

My local library is somewhat lacking, so online resources would be most helpful...

Thanks in advance...

[Michael Dorosh]

GD was motorized infantry then, not panzergrenadier, to answer your question. I presume they used the "standard" motorized infantry regiment order of battle, though in 1940 they had one extra company per battalion. GD was always a special case.

As for map scale - frustrating, isn't it! I did my map from ones in the standard GD histories which unfortunately give no idea as to scale.

Or names of unit commanders, or vehicle variants.

All you or I need to know, according to GD's official chroniclers, was that they were good hardy German fighting men who sacrificed their lives bravely and heroicly fighting a vicious, inhumane enemy who would be far happier to live in a hole in the ground for weeks on end, just to come out and stab you in the back with a sharpened stick, than he would be sitting at home listening to Bach and eating apfelstrudel.

German histories are as bad as Canadian ones for only covering one side of the equation, but to be fair, Soviet archivists weren't too terribly keen on westerners (especially "Nazis") using their unit histories after 1945.

I would guess the StuGs used by GD to be the latest variants; one history notes they knocked out (in conjunction with Pz Abteilung GD) 100 Soviet tanks with out loss in the Luchessa Valley.

The Panzer Abteilung had Pz IVs, in an indeterminate mix of short and long barreled 75s. (One company of F1s and two companies of F2s).

You asked about the Marders in the anti-tank battalion; I think Marder IIs at this stage but am open to correction.

In action, it was often the case that the Panzer battalion supported one of the GD infantry regiments, while the StuG battalion supported the other; so in general a company of tanks or assault guns could convievably support each battalion of infantry.

Tank losses in the earlier battles at Rzhev were higher; the StuG battalion knocked out 150 enemy for a loss of 4, while the tank battalion knocked out 100 tanks, losing 30.

Wish I could help more, but if you do find additional info, would love to hear about it.

[ May 31, 2003, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[SFJaykey]

Thanks, Michael, that is already quite helpful.

FWIW I don't expect to find enough details to recreate the battle completely....and even if I could it is too large for CMBB and would need to be scaled. Hopefully, I will be able to capture the "feel" of the Luchesa engagement in terms of terrain, weather, objectives, force types and etc.

I just tried a QB for Dec '42, Central to see what the standard rarity would suggest for unit types. BFC sez (via the rarity generator) that Marder III (early) was the most common variant for that date, followed by the II. Stug would be the F8, followed by B and F. I'll take all this under advisement and make sure the latest variant of each type is well represented....as you said, GD was always "special." Also the OoB on the website mentions 2 LMGs per squad, so I think I am looking at Panzergrenadiers. For unit quality, how does a mix heavy on vets, with some regulars and greens (replacements), and a sprinkling of cracks sound?

[edited because I somehow skipped one of MD's paragraphs first time through.]

Can you tell me any more about the composition of "Kampfgruppes Kohler and Warschenauer," depicted on your map, and their roles in the battle?

Thanks....maybe you'd like to be my alpha playtester?

[ June 01, 2003, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: SFJaykey ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by SFJaykey:

Now, since we don't "know," please help me speculate: it was the grenadier regiment that defended at Luchesa... Would the grenadier regiment be more likely to have the tank battalion, rather than the Stugs? An omission I find suggestive: the biographies of Knight's Cross winners Frantz and Wegener skip any mention of activities at Luchesa...both were Stug drivers.

Heh, that's excellent investigative work on your part! Whether or not it's true, I don't know, but you obviously have good critical thinking skills. If I run across any other info I'll let you know.

One specific question: can you tell me any more about the composition of "Kampfgruppe Kohler," depicted on your map, and its role in the battle?

Thanks....maybe you'd like to be my alpha playtester?

I'll see if I can find anything on Köhler for you. As for Alpha testing...bearing in mind I suck at CM, I would be very pleased to test anything you come up with.

Hopefully some others can add to this thread; perhaps JasonC is rustling through the library as we speak and can trump me with info on the PzJäg Abteilung?

As my site suggests, they were heavy on 5 cm anti-tank guns; certainly more common than Marder IIs, but I'll see what Spaeter might have to say.

[Michael Dorosh]

I see I have the disposition of GD units at the start of the Luchessa fighting on my site, but not the composition of the battlegroups.

Kampfgruppe Kassnitz consisted of

Füsilier Regiment GD

StuG Battalion GD

Recon Battalion GD

Plus 2 Kompanie of the Anti-Tank Battalion, a battalion of GD artillery and a battery of the Army FlaK battalion GD, and medical units. They were to be the mobile reserve and stationed near Bely. They were directly under the command of 41st Panzer Corps (under General Harpe).

Many vehicles were parked for the winter near Vyazma (specifically those not capable of operating in the winter mud).

Köhler commanded the Grenadier Regiment, so his battlegroup likely was similar as above, with the panzer battalion in support?

Andreas will love this - the first GD unit to see action in the region was the 11th Armoured Observation Battery of the Artillery Regiment GD, when it began monitoring Soviet positions on both sides of the Beresa River (on the 110th I.D. front) using sound ranging equipment. The Meteorological Section of the battery went into Demidow with the "ARKO 122 to take weather observations for the entire corps sector. A flash-ranging system was subsequently set up in the same sector, as it was determined that the Soviets had reinforced their artillery forces in a sector opposite the 86th Infantry Division in the Luchessa Valley."

Spaeter mentions the creation of a Ski Battalion from troops of the Recon, Grenadier and Füsilier Regiments, but doesn't seem to indicate how or with whom they were employed.

The table on my site shows that the Panzer Battalion had its companies farmed out to other divisions, and 1 company was in fact disbanded, though I believe this was after the first 5 days or so of fighting.

The fighting was so confused, and the divisional units were so far flung, it is hard to figure from my scanty sources who was employed where!

[ June 01, 2003, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[SFJaykey]

So KG Kassnitz, with the Fusilier Regiment and the Stugs, was likely the force that counterattacked south of Belyi early in December. By elimination, KG Kohler should have had the tank battalion, and elements of flak, artillery and AT. And maybe the Pioneers. Considering the chaos you (and my sources) mention, I may take some liberties with the force allocation: I like Marders!

I'll get started on the map. Speaking of which, I am working with comments like "a long narrow valley lined with forests and frozen swamps...non-existent or terrible roads and very difficult conditions for movement...a salient 8km wide by 15 km long," etc. Do your sources have anything to add to that? (My map won't be 15km long, but I'll try to get the ratio right.)

Thanks again,

[Kevin Kinscherf]

I have an out of print book called "Panzer Grenadier Division Grossdeutschland" by Herbert Scheibert. It is a squadron/signal publication.

Copyright 1977.

You may have it. It is a picture book BUT has some good maps and OOBs for the start of each year. It has a section and map related to Lutschessa. It lists three Kampfgruppes:

Lindemann, Warschenauer, Kohler. Looks like Lindemann is part of the 110 Infantry Div..

On another page, KG Lorenz is listed. If you guys would like a specific photocopy from the book let me know.

Kevin

Kevin

[SFJaykey]

Wow, Kevin, if by "you," you meant me, then that would be awesome. Please send your email and I'll send my snail mail address....I'll be happy to pay for postage, both ways if you want the book back when I'm done. My email is sfjaykey48@yahoo.com

If by "you," you meant Dorosh, who is the real GD enthusiast, then I'd be happy to fwd the book to him after extracting what info I can.

Or if you'd rather send photocopies (or scans), I'd be most interested in maps of the Luchesa action, timelines, and related OoBs. Narrative would be great, but I won't ask you to scan the whole chapter!

[Kevin Kinscherf]

Why dont I mail a few examples so you can check if it will be worthwhile to have more for the book.

Kevin

kevinkin@speakeasy.net

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by SFJaykey:

Wow, Kevin, if by "you," you meant me, then that would be awesome. Please send your email and I'll send my snail mail address....I'll be happy to pay for postage, both ways if you want the book back when I'm done. My email is sfjaykey48@yahoo.com

If by "you," you meant Dorosh, who is the real GD enthusiast, then I'd be happy to fwd the book to him after extracting what info I can.

Or if you'd rather send photocopies (or scans), I'd be most interested in maps of the Luchesa action, timelines, and related OoBs. Narrative would be great, but I won't ask you to scan the whole chapter!

I do have a copy, I'm sure he meant you!

There are some good photos, but the orders of battle are done by little truck icons and none of the maps have any scale. I like it just for the faces you can attach to some of the names. The captions are very brief, and some of the photos don't show GD troops at all.

Not to put down Kevin's generousity - this book is always selling on ebay and is a high demand item. But as a reference specifically for scenario design, it falls short.

[Steve McClaire]

Glantz's "Zuhkov's Greatest Defeat" is an excellent source for all the Operation Mars fighting, and does cover the Luchessa situation in some detail.

The river valley was the boundary between two German Korps (XXXXI.Pz.K was south, forget the northern Korps designation), and also the boundary between the 110.ID (north) and 86.ID (south) - one rgt of each division was involved in the fighting (both reinforced with whatever the divisions could spare/scrape up - both were holding very long fronts). KG Lindemann was the KG of the 110.ID holding the northern shoulder of the Soviet breakthrough.

GD sent KG Kohler (Gren.Rgt.GD) and KG Warschenauer (2 companies of GD Pionier battalion) but Glantz does not mention any attached tanks that I can recall. Other GD units were involved in a counter attack along the Luchessa much later (Dec or Jan 43 I think) after they were freed up from the fighting to the north and around Belyi to the south.

Steve

[SFJaykey]

Thanks Kevin, Steve, and Michael...this is all great stuff!

Since MD has the book Kevin mentioned, I suspect the map on MD's website incorporates the info from it. Still, it would be neat to see what else is in there....photos might give me a better idea of how to depict the terrain, etc.

[Andreas]

Mike, thanks for the info on the Beobachtungsbatterie GD. Unfortunately the history of the battery itself only mentions the fight in passing, but it confirms that it went in first, in the sector of 253. ID, facing north.

Initial elements of GD in the Luchessa Sector were KGs Köhler (sounds like I. Batallion w/some 5cm AT, 8,8 and artillery) and Wahrschauer (1. and 2. Company of Sturmpioniere GD). II. Batallion seems to have arrived first of the main combat units, and appears initially not to have been part of either of the KGs. It was fighting initially east of Tarchowo-Staruchi, and was soon reduced to the strength of a reinforced platoon.

Kassnitz and the Stugs were initially at least not in the Luchessa sector, but in the Byelyi (or Byeloi) sector further south. I am reasonably certain there were no Stugs in the Luchessa Valley during the initial assaults and frantic attempts to plug the hole. Grossmann mentions 4 Stugs arriving at night Dec. 1/2nd from Byelyi.. IIRC, GD also did not undertake the later counterattacks to eliminate the salient. There is a mention that the Grenadier regiment lost cohesion for a short time following the death of its commander Oberst Köhler. On 1st December, when this happened, GD and attached units were actually being ground to pieces, and the Soviets managed to push them back. Only significant reinforcements from other divisions and improved weather conditions allowing air support cleared the situation from the 4th onwards.

KG Lindemann was indeed from 110. ID.

On the Soviet side, the armoured forces were a very well-known outfit by the way, commanded by Katukov. His side-kick Popjel is very critical in his memoirs on how the battle was fought.

Sources I used are Lieutenant General Popjel's memoirs 'Panzer greifen an' (Volume II), Grossmann 'Rshew - Eckpfeiler der Ostfront', a history of the battle for the salient that is also used by Glantz, and 'Aufklärende Artillerie', a history of Beobachtungsabteilungen.

[JonS]

Glantz' "Zhukovs Greatest Defeat" is available online, if you weren't already aware. It has soime useful maps, but the level of detail tends to hover around corps/army level.

Sadly I don't have a link handy, but a google with the first four words of this post should throw it up fairly quickly.

Regards

JonS

[SFJaykey]

Thanks, I do have Glantz's article and have extracted as much from the text and maps as I can. Andreas' post is also quite helpful, confirming and expanding on what I have inferred from studying the squiggly arrows and symbols on several maps. I think to do the Luchesa fight justice, even just the early part from November 26-30, I will have to cast it as an operation, and have started sketching maps and force mixes, but don't expect to see the "beta" for a couple of weeks. It will be my first operation and I am a little bit of a perfectionist...

While waiting for the snail mail to bring me Kevin's photos (thanks again!), I have undertaken another scenario drawn from Glantz's history of Operation Mars, this one based on the Soviet attempt to cut the road southeast of Belyi on November 27-28. It is almost done but I am out of leisure time for a while; hope to offer it for playtesting Friday or early next week.

[ June 09, 2003, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: SFJaykey ]

[Kingfish]

JonS,

Is this what you are referring to?

[JonS]

Kingfish,

yeah, that's it. The maps are poos, but if you copy-and-paste them into word (or MSpaint for that matter) they scrub up quitre nicely.

Regards

JonS

[Andreas]

BTW - focusing on the early part is probably a good idea, since it is much better documented. It was then attempted to clear the valley w again (at a heavy cost) by 12.PD and attached KGs of other divisions under the command of XXIII.AK. In repeated attacks from 21.Dec to 12. Jan 1943 the division fails to clear the valley, taking heavy losses. They gain an area of 4x5-6km. The attacks are called 'Fuchsjagd' (Fox Hunt) 1-3.

On the first day of Fuchsjagd the division loses 25 KIA and 134 WIA. At the end of the period II./PGR5 numbers 4/9/137, and II./PGR25 9/20/196 (Off/NCO/OR). The divisional history notes "From 13. - 15. Jan the division is relieved, and beginning on the 16th leaves the often cursed Luchessa Valley."