Minor defeat

[SpitfireXI]

I looked this up in the manual and could not find an answer. If I take all the flags and kill more of the enemy except for vehicles should I not get at least a minor victory? I played a battle last night where I killed about 8 German 88's and 6 Tigers in addition to 4 Panzer but lost loads of T-34's but captured all of the flags. However at the end of the game I was given a minor victory. I understand I took heavy casualties in tanks but if the Russian can't use their numerical superiority and win how else are the Russians supposed to get a victory?

[37mm]

The level of victory is determined by a ratio of points gained versus points lost.

You must’ve lost more points than gained.

Next time remember this when calculating whether to go for an objective.

For instance if you lose five tanks & a infantry platoon taking a 100 point objective you’re going to lose the battle.

Count objectives as bonus points that help sweeten the ‘inevitable’ losses an attacker will suffer when he attempts to destroy the enemy.

[ October 29, 2004, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: 37mm ]

[YankeeDog]

1) Vehicles, and especially tanks are worth a LOT of knockout points. It all depends on what you mean by losing "a lot" T-34s, and also what kind of T-34s they were -- T-34/85s are worth a lot more points than T-34/76s. But if your tank losses were, say, 2:1 over the enemy's losses, this would be very bad for your point score. Also, remember that experience level counts -- losing a veteran tank costs you more in the final tally than losing a green one, so you need to look at the relative experience level you the your losses vs. the enemy's.

2) In addition vehicle crews are also worth a lot of points; if a considerable number of your T-34 crewmen were killed/wounded (or heaven forbid, captured!), while your opponent lost relatively few crewmen from his guns & tanks this would also tip things in your opponent's favor.

3) How many flags were involved? And were they big or small? In battles with lots of high-point units (like tanks), and only a few small flags, the flags actually aren't all that important to the final score. Smaller flags are actually worth less than most medium tanks in terms of the final score, so trading a tank for a small flag is generally a bad idea.

4) Also, if you were playing a scenario, it's possible the designer put in a play balance adjustment to favor one side or the other.

In short, the devil is in the details, and it all depends on exactly how the battle was set up, and the exact composition of your losses vs. your opponent's. The game engine can be used to create battles where one side can tolerate heavy losses and still win as long as they gain the flag(s), or where one side can only win if they tank/hold the flags while keeping losses at a minimum.

Generally speaking, though, in CM and in real life the idea behind numerical superiourity is not to take large losses to gain the objective, it's to so overwhelm the enemy that you actually take relatively few losses due to overwhelming firepower. At least by mid-war once they'd gotten their act together, this was a central concept of Red Army doctrine at all levels.

Cheers,

YD

[Bannon DC]

Also -- make sure you actually held the flag instead of just clearing the enemy off it. You must occupy the flag with a unit in order to get the points at the end. If you capture it and press on, the flag will revert to neutral once you leave the area.

If you have fog-of-war turn up, it may appear you own a flag, but it actually may be contested if enemy units are hidden nearby.

But as said above -- you probably lost too many units. If the scenario is designed such that you are most likely to loose many units to win the ground, a weighted bonus should be given to the player. What scenario was it?

I've seen discussion before on holding flags -- do crew units count for a flag actually being held? I play CMBB. Anyone know?

[murphus]

I've held flags with crews, also with anti-tank rifles out of ammo, section chiefs and all that other riff-raff.

Regarding victory: you should definitely think in terms of kill ratios to achieve solid victory. Just look at the AAR screen, where units killed/captured count for many more points than flags.

[SpitfireXI]

Thanks, it appears I lost way to many tanks and now that I think of it, I lost 4 fighters which really probably tipped the balance. Kind of annoying since I really did not have control over them. However, I really thought they were brave going through all that AAA to kill tanks.

[Redwolf]

Also note that fortifications count as instant knockout points against the owner in CMBB 1.03.

Why don't you post the breakdown in the end screen so that we can have a better picture of why you only got a minor one?