Rockets & von Braun

[Codename Condor]

Lots of people claim about the low importance of Rockets in SC, i think it represents what happened in the war, i dont think that rocketry coulda changed the history of war, in fact i think just the opposite, great amount of recourses for little reward. 1500 V-2's reached England. They killed 2500 people.

The bazooka was a much more effective weapon. And Liam's radar idea much more interesting than rocketry. Or maybe not??

With radar maybe u will be talking german with rockets u reached the stars.

Because that was always von Braun's dream, to reach the starts, dreaming to reach Mars after he conquered the moon.

Hero?

or villain?

von Braun, honorary SS officer and blaimed for using slave labourers in the production of rockets at Peenemuende, slaves from concentration camps and specialized french workers, about 10,000 of the prisoners died of malnutrition and disease.

I dont think hes to blaim for it, u have to look the whole context and the situation. In Germany before the rise of Hitler, von Braun knew that the only way to get the kind of funding and resources necessary to develop his rocket science would be through the military. He worked for the army because he knew only that way he could achieve his goals. And then he joined the US, "Operation Paperclip",

because it was the only way to carry on, and finally achieve his dream: to reach the moon.

[Shaka of Carthage]

The Rocket unit suffers the same problem that the Strategic Bomber unit does in SC. SC doesn't really represent the effect they had as strategic weapons. And trying to use them as if they were a Air or "scaled up" Artillery unit they fall short.

Rocket development should be a pre-requisite for Jet tech level 4. It would be much more interesting for the Allies to have large numbers of Air (tl3) and Strategic Bombers facing a smaller number of Axis Air, that are tech level 4 or 5.

[JerseyJohn]

Codename Condor

Outstanding.

Agreed all the way, including your interpretation of their role in the game as opposed to their historical value.

Germany was actually researching rockets as part of an overall weapons program, part of which hinged upon developing an atomic bomb.

Below are some links on this related subject.

Click Here for detailed article on Germany's "Virus House" A-Bomb project.

Click Here for Article on Werner Heisenberg, Head of the German A-Bomb Project.

Click here for article on German Plutonium Stocks, Real and Rumored.

[ August 21, 2003, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

Shaka

Yes, great points. The German Jet program was interlocked with it's flying rocket program, much of the technology of which was derived from V-1 research. Japan actually built V-1 designed to be piloted after launching from a bomber.

The V-2 can't be judged strictly in terms of how many people it killed, it was effective enough to cause the British to consider evacuating the civilian population from London!

Additionally, the Germans were relying on damage reports from spotters who, unbeknownst to them, had already been found out and turned. V-2 hits were reported incorectly causing aiming adjustments that sent later rockets to false targets, sometimes missing the city entirely.

They'd have been more effective if the Germans had some way of conducting reliable aerial photography over the city. covert ground observers, even if they'd been reliable, were a poor second choice.

It's interesting to note how the war began with biplanes still in service (The British were still using Swordfish in late 1942), and ended with rockets, jets and atomic bombs!

[ August 21, 2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[SeaMonkey]

nevermind

[ August 21, 2003, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: SeaMonkey ]

[Friedrich_der_2]

Wernher von Braun is one of the person we can vote in our current votes to the "Greatest German of all Times". But I voted for Albert Einstein, Wernher von Braun is in second place for me.

Adolf Hitler is not votable.

Sven

PS: This picture shows the first manned rocket. It is called "Natter" and was operational short before the end of the war.

[ August 21, 2003, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: Friedrich_der_2 ]

[Codename Condor]

Shaka

branch tech, techs that opens others techs, sounds interesting in special rockets+jets,

another mix could lead to...a nuclear weapon???

JerseyJohn

thanks! i just read liam's post about radar and remembered a documentary about von braun i watched some time ago.

I never believed germany was so close in the Nuclear Weapon, all the articles read "MAY BE...", undoubtely V2 + Nuclear Weapon...geeze.

Are this articles something to be trusted?

[JerseyJohn]

Codename Condore

I found them interesting but you ask an interesting question, I wouldn't entirely trust anything that comes off the internet.

But in the one instance, despite Germany's not having a viable A-bomb in the works, the house where Heisenberg and the others were being kept was bugged with microphones. They were given a radio and listened attentively to the descriptions of the Fat Man and Little Boy bombings of Heroshima and Nagasaki. They discussed it very intensely and figured out many of the details from the radio accounts alone!

There's wide speculation that neither Heisenberg nor his colleagues ever had any real intention of building such a weapon. This seems to be a legitimate point because the apparatus they were working on appeared to American experts to be fakery designed to impress nazi observers.

A variation on that story is that Heisenberg simply didn't believe in the project being a feasable goal given Germany's war time resources.

I believe the truth lies somewhere in between, with the German scientists deliberately dragging their feet whenever possible.

Germany appears to have possessed plenty of refined uranium, as they were attempting to send some of it to Japan via U-boats and two Japanese submarines as the Allies closed in on them. Ironically, by remaining in touch with Germany the submarines sealed their own fate as the Allies were regularly intercepting and reading the transmissions. One U-boat survived, however, and surrendered itself to the United States, which is believed to have used it's nuclear shipment in one of the two bombs dropped on Japan; that isn't speculation or rumor, the sub and it's shipment are a fact.

[Friedrich_der_2]

Are this articles something to be trusted?

It is not clear if Germany had the capability to develop a nuclear bomb. You read a lot of material if you can read German here .

Sven

PS: The picture shows a prototype DFS 346 of the German supersonic plane program.

[ August 21, 2003, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Friedrich_der_2 ]

[JerseyJohn]

Friedrich_der_2

Great photo, always good to learn about something and even better to see a photo of it!

I think you've made a fine choice, I'd vote for Einstein in any poll his name appears on.

Simon Weisenthal's had a great quote along these lines. "The Austrians are very clever people, they took Beethoven, who was a German, and made him an Austrian, then they took Hitler, who was an Austrian, and made him a German!"

The German rocket scientists were incredulous that the Americans who interviewed them had never heard of Robert Goddard.

I think you might find this link of interest as you like Einstein.

Article on Werner Heisenberg and Albert Einstein

Another great photo. I think Germany needed to be at peace in order to actually make any of the weapons they were developing. Lack of resources was ruining their efforts. For example, they were making good fighter jets in early 1945 that kept falling apart because of inferior glue!

In terms of resources committed, the German A-bomb program was hardly significant in comparrison to the United States effort, and even with all that committment the Ameriricans barely developed the bomb in time to manufacture and use it by the end of the war. With that taken into consideration, I believe German scientists were fully capable of the research but could not have actually tested the component parts and then built a functional bomb while the country was still at war.

Rocket pioneer, Robert Goddard.

[ August 21, 2003, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Codename Condor]

JerseyJohn

Yes, i remember i read something about that jap sub in this forum long time ago, i must admit i didnt believe a word .

Its interesting how Germany survived so long during the world!: Canaris, Stauffenberg and the rest of them, and now the german scientists delaying projects on purpose!

Friedrich

Im afraid my German is too crap to make any attempt to read something in german.

[ August 21, 2003, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Codename Condor ]

[JerseyJohn]

Condor,

I first read about it here as well, then saw a documentary about it on, of all places, The History Channel!

Many of their programs are very interesting and excellent, especially when they aren't wasting an hour with the history of the toaster.

The documentary was a little embarrassing for me because I'd always said the rumors about German and Japanese atomic bomb technology was a lot of nonsense, but over the years a lot of interesting information has come out on these things. It's good to be able to see it on TV and have a view of them without always having to use the more time consuming approach of getting the information from written accounts.

My German language skills are also scheist, which I've probably mispelled.

[ August 21, 2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Friedrich_der_2]

Dear friends,

perhaps I can translate tomorrow some of the discussion between Bohr, Heisenberg and Weizaecker. Weizaecker worked in the German atomic bomb program and Bohr worked on the Theorie of the US bomb. Heisenberg also worked in the German nuclear program but his statements are different to Weizaeckers so we cannot be sure about the status of the German bomb.

Sven

PS: This photo shows a flying bridge which is brought to the river by a plane! One of those crazy Germany ideas. The flying bridge was developed in 1941 and even a tank could cross the river over this bridge.

[ August 21, 2003, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Friedrich_der_2 ]

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by Friedrich_der_2:

PS: This picture shows the first manned rocket. It is called "Natter" and was operational short before the end of the war.

The Natter was far away from being operational. It was a death machine in 1945 (for their pilots only).

[Codename Condor]

I found that the 3 ALSOS mission carried by civilian scientists under the Manhathan Engeering District concluded that Germany couldnt possible make use of an atomic bomb

ALSOS project

As von braun and his rocketry colleagues were taken to the US, the scientists were taken to Farm Hall, a country estate in England where their every word was surreptitiously recorded by the British. One interesting dialogue follows:

Diebner: "I wonder whether there are microphones installed here?"

Heisenberg: "Microphones installed? (Laughter) Oh, no, they're not as cute as all that. I don't think they know the real Gestapo methods; they're a bit old-fashioned in that respect."

[ August 22, 2003, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: Codename Condor ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

My understanding has been that the German atomic energy program was for development of a alternative energy source, not as a weapons program. Along with the synthetic oil, it was an attempt to be self-sufficient since the British Royal Navy had the ability to cut off Germanies oil supply.

[Friedrich_der_2]

The Natter was far away from being operational. It was a death machine in 1945 (for their pilots only)

Natter has become operational in April 1945. The first squadron was placed near Stuttgart in southern Germany.

The first succesfull unmanned test was at December 22nd 1944. The picture below was taken at this test.

The first manned test happened March, 1st 1945. Lothar Sieber was the pilot of the first manned rocket in history. Unfortunately he made a mistake and crashed into the ground where he died. It seems that he lost orientation in the clouds. His machine did not had an artificial horizon which was later included in all Natter rockets.

Sven

[ August 22, 2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Friedrich_der_2 ]

[Jordy]

At the very end of the war the germans stationed ten of the Natters (Viper)at Kircheim (near Stuttgart). They were operational but saw no action before the site was overrun by the U.S. Seventh Army. The Germans destroyed all ten Natters and their launchers.

They did have a very interesting "landing" procedure for the pilot though :eek: .

In addition, there are only two known surviving today. One at The Deutsches Museum, Munich, Germany, and the other at the National Air and Space Museum.

[ August 22, 2003, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Jordy ]

[Codename Condor]

Friedrich

Maybe he was the first man in a rocket but i heard about a pilot woman that manned the V1, (they inserted some instruments in the rocket) to see why there were failing so much, she discovered they didnt respond well to cross winds.

Shaka

yep, thats what it seems reading some info out there, but with Hitler in power, his "uberweapon" madness and about to lose the war i wouldnt be surprised of a more secret project to build nuclear weapons.

[ August 22, 2003, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Codename Condor ]

[Friedrich_der_2]

Maybe he was the first man in a rocket but i heard about a pilot woman that manned the V1, (they inserted some instruments in the rocket) to see why there were failing so much, she discovered they didnt respond well to cross winds.

You are right. Fieseler Werke developed a manned version of the V1 rocket, it was called Reichenberg. Hanna Reitsch, the only female test pilot, flow in 1944 with a prototype. But this rocket plane never became operational because the pilot would have been died in the rocket when it were exploded near the target and the government did not wanted such weapons.

Originally a kamikaze plane was planned called Me 328 B. But it never left prototype status.

[xwormwood]

After a total of 4 manned flights (one dead, three survivors): was the Natter really operational? :confused:

Himmler recommeded and promoted this project, which would explain that this human rocket was build and declared "operational" under such circumstances...

Only green pilots, a plane/rocket build mostly of wooden parts, highly explosive fuel: the project has been rejected by the Luftwaffe, but after Himmler interfered the responsible Luftwaffe officers suddenly changed their mind.

[Jordy]

Considered operational and actually being operational may be two different things. While the Natter was considered operational, it never flew any combat missions. Apparently no allied bombers came close enough for them to attack before the base was over run. Who knows how well they would of done. It also had a limited range so once the location of the base was found, allied aircraft could just fly around it.

Its armament was also very interesting, once within range, the pilot would lose the nose cone of the aircraft, and shoot 24 Henschel Hs 217 Föhn unguided rockets all at once, at the bomber formation.

Then after the that was over the pilot would have to get to an acceptable altitude, release his harness, blow off the entire nose section of the aircraft. At the time the nose section blew off, a parachut would deploy from the rear fo the aircraft and the pilot would literally be flug out of the front of the rocket. The pilot would then deploy his own parachute after clearing any debris. The rocket would crash and only the engine (rocket motor) would try and be recovered. The frame, obviously, would be destroyed.

Either way, IMHO it was a complete failure and a waste of resources. It could only fly once, it had a limited range, and in order for the pilot to land safely, it seems to me that everything must go perfect.

[Liam]

From what I remeber from the old history books; German Rocket Fighters were first, then Jet Fighters. The rocket fuel was dangerous and a bad way to die if it should come into contact with the skin, which it did in some cases.

I don't think there was much support as they reach great alts and speeds but without reliability or practical use... The Jet definitely in the ME-262 changed that. Sadly as a Fighter-bomber not much use. A successor to the He-111? Not a very good choice, not a whole lot of payload.

Several thousand ME-262s in early '44 or late '43 instead of Secret Weapons would've freed thousands of men. Would've prevented the Allies from opening up a front. Would've stalled the Soviet Advance and perhaps given the German's more bargaining chips with Stalin. Germany kept production #s high throughout the War till the end before they were totally crippled by dwindling pilots before dwindling aircraft. The fact is Hitler had to go, he ruined that project IMHO. Changing into a Fighter-Bomber

Rockets were great terror weapons. Just like SCUDs today, but not very accurate. A waste of resources. Unless you attached a camera and remote control device on them and guided them up into a B-17s/Lancaster Fuselage. Another genius idea, possible in the 40s? Not sure

[Friedrich_der_2]

Natter was far away from beeing an effective weapon. But it was an interesting technical project. The building costs were not so high because the frame was made of wood.

I see the Natter together with the V2, Me 262 (it has perhaps performed the first supersonic flight), the flying brigde, Sänger Stratosphere Bomber, Bv 141 (an asymmetrical bomber), Horten IX Nurflügler as interesting technical projects which let me thing about the war could be the father of technical breakthroughs.

Altough the V2/A4 reached the space Wernher von Braun worked on a two stage rocket A9/A10. I am happy that the war ended but what would he have reached with one year more time with his team? Perhaps he could have launched a satellite 10 years earlier.

Sven

The picture below shows a vertical take off and landing plane with a maximum speed of 900km/h. But the war ended before a manned prototype could launch, only a unmanned prototype launched a few times. It was called Focke-Wulf Triebflügel.

[JerseyJohn]

Frederick

Enjoyed that Heisenberg quote concerning the microphones, also explains why those scientists discussed the matter so freely and for so many hours.

Liam

The Germans did have a camera guided rocket, the world's first smart bomb. I believe it's only use came in damaging the Itallian BB Litorio as it sailed to join the Allied fleet off Salerno. When used shortly afterwards against an American vessel it's radio waves were jammed and it fell harmlessly into the sea. It saw no further action that I'm aware of.

Agreed with you on many points regarding the jets. Not all of the blame goes to Hitler, however. In the Spring of 1939 Germany had a flying jet fighter prototype, it may well have been the earliest ME-262. Goering and Udet thought it was a faulty idea and Milch was busy manipulating prop-driven projects with Heinkel and Doernier. So, without support, the jet project was put so far on the back burner as to be almost forgotten. The civilian designers were drafted into regular military service and, by the time this stupidity was rectified they had to be pulled out of infantry trenches!

It's true, as you said, that Hitler compounded the idiocy by not only insisting that the jets have a ground attack capability but by also wasting time trying to have them dive! Even with the resurrection of the project a year was lost with all that nonsense; meanwhile B-17s were carpet bombing German cities with 1000 plane raids.

Though the first to initiate Jet engine research, the British were convinced in the late '30s that they'd always be too heavy for practical use.

If Germany had done things properly it would have had a few hundred jet fighters in service before the Fall of France. By then Britain would no doubt have developed a prototype of their own, but three or four hundred jets crossing the channel regularly, even with their limited range, might have convinced Britain to seek peace terms. Subsequent modern history would have followed a significantly different path.