Liam Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 John: The concept is interesting. I wonder why noone saw the use for a fighter that is much faster than prop aircraft! It was definitely worth some research! If you're the underdog, as Germany was, you definitely need something on your side. Would've taken the Brits a bit longer to get their prototype into full Service maybe not an assured victory by the BOB. Though a jet fighter along the lines of the ME-262 would've been killer on bomber formations. Dashing through them too fast to be shot at with MGs. Obviously the 109 was a real outdated fighter by the time it came up against the Spitfires and P-38s-51s. More along the lines of the Hurricane or P-40. The 190 never really took the cake.. I'm not sure how well a B&Z fighter would be at escorting Germans however... Also the logistics of preparing that puppy for full Service any time during the earyly years. However as with the V-1 2 rocket projects German ingenuity was always well respected by the Allies. Ahead of schedule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Liam Your statement about the 109s being outdated by certain allied aircraft are somewhat controversial. The responses and comparision would be best as a topic by themselves if anyone is interested. The easiest way would be to post the various ratings those aircraft have been assigned and then compare them to each other. You will see some very revealing things. For example, granted that the P-51 was a great fighter, but its main advantage was its range. Fighter to fighter, certain models of the Fw-190s could hold thier own against a P-51, assuming pilot skill is equal, which by then it wasn't. One of the reasons thier was reluctance to persue Jet aircraft was its short range and it was a fuel hog. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, SC doesn't really reflect these truths. Allies (US/UK) needed range to support the bombers and Axis had fuel problems. Not until the bombers were over Germany was it feasible to consider using Jets, but then other problems prevented that solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 John: I've read a few books on the Spitfire and the 109s. Definitely worthy aircraft for their time. They showed a brit pilot stepping in and out of a Spit and a Messershmidt and he showed the obvious lack of room in the German Fighter. Was cramped! Big deal for a pilot. Room is a big deal and some well known facts First tested in combat during the Spanish Civil War, the 109 outclassed all competition until it met with the Spitfire. Fast, agile, and in later versions powerfully armed, the 109 remained in service throughout the war. Slightly slower than the Spitfire, it had better climb and could turn faster at high speed. In addition, the fuel-injected BMW in-line engine allowed it to perform well in inverted flight and under negative g-loading - conditions under which the carburated engine of the Spitfire and Hurricane tended to fail. Built under contract in Spain after the war (and ironically powered by the same Rolls-Royce Merlin engine that powered the Spitfire), 109's actually remained in military service into the 1960's. I'd say her biggest weakness was her speed and armament vs the Spitfire. depending on which MK you're speaking about. I think that Battle of Britian #s proved that. Just looking at the beautiful Streamline Spitfire gives me that feeling of SuperFighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 The one thing about Von Braun that gets to me is he is more guilty than other Nazi parties members<who actually recieved prison sentences due to politics instead of actual atrocities> and he got off scot free cause he was an asset for the US. I suppose it helps to be a Rocket Scientist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Liam Sure von Braun wasn't lilly white but in the wake of the war the U. S. wanted that technology badly and was willing to whitewash many past sins to obtain it. What has to be considered is we already possessed the atomic bomb, what was needed next was a delivery system. Even with all of Truman's excessive postwar defense cutbacks, the United States still managed to do plenty of research into missle systems. Regarding the aircraft, many German Aces preferred the Me 109 over the FW. To me the FW, Me 109 and Spitfire were fairly well balanced; the Spitfire only seemed superior because during the Battle of Britain it fought close to it's bases while the Me 109s had to got to maximum range. Additionally, the German fighter pilots received constantly conflicting instructions from Goering and were often tied directly to the bombers. The American fighters joining the fight from 1943 onwards surprised everyone, including the Americans! They were the epitome of prop fighter aircraft and nothing anyone else had could have touched them, except properly developed jet fighters. After the first flights of the jet prototype in the Spring of 1939, Goering, Udet and several other WW I German fighter aces in the Luftwaffe's upper echelons decided Jets could never turn quickly enough for dog fights. They thought jets would be useless as fighters and too fast to conduct accurate bombing missions. Those bizarre opinions, combined with the aircrafts poor range in prototype, convinced the honchos that jets had no place in an approaching war. Beyond that they didn't think the war would last more than a year. I'm sure Goering intended to research the area again after that short war's conclusion. Though some of his reasoning is hard to fault, his executions were clumsy, heavy handed and always corrupt in favor of his cronies. Essentially he was incapable and inept as the head of the Luftwaffe and his handling of jet development is only one example of it. The British can't really be faulted, their prewar jet program never really developed and later, when it was seen that Germany actually had them up and shooting down planes, they closed the gap in a hurry. Though the first jet vs jet dogfight was five years off, British jets were flying toward the end of the war and shooting down V-1s. If the Germans had developed and manufactured jet planes in 1940 and 1941, I think the British might have had a capable jet fighter in 1942. In other words, once the race began the Brits showed themselves very adaptable. The problem was, they might not have lasted long enough to get them in the air. Germany had something like a three year technological edge in jet aircraft at the start of the war and doesn't appear to have realized it. [ August 22, 2003, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 John: I have no idea how advanced the German Jets were. I knew they were flying testflights. I knew they were the first ones to split the atom. Made strides in all those areas including rocketry. Seems that Rocketry in the 1940s was not a very important weapon.. It cannot be guided nor used on a precise target. Jets are fast! A lot of the WW1 aces, who fought in bi and tri planes didn't see the value of an aircraft that probably wasn't meant to be a turnfighter, and they didn't undestand boom and zoom tactics<which the Americans used primarily aside from their P-38 Lightnings and found HUGE success with>. I've played Simulations of the Spitfire since I was little boy. The ole 109 vs the Spit was always considered two great rivals of the era. Though every bit of information I've ever come across shows that Spit out turns the 109. The spit has better arms, the spit is Faster. The spit holds it's Energy well. It's a supreme fighter above all fighters. I wouldn't consider the earlier versions of it or the Hurricane though to be 'far' superior to basic 109s. When you see the 109 it's main staple assects are it's quick climb, 20 minutes extra of Water Injected Power, and slightly more durable than the dogfighting Versions of the Spitfire. Aside from that she was too slow, poorer turner and ran out of cannons too fast. I think that what most don't realize is that The Germans had experience by the time of BOB. That was their key. Though I am a fan of the 109 as well from the Franz, Emil... it is an outdated fighter. I think it's PowerPlant is it's biggest flaw. The Rolls Royce Engine for the Spit was it's savour... The Americans used superb tactics of B&Z, with experienced pilots. The p-51d was faster than the FW190 depending on what alt and far more maunuever'd better. It held it's E longer than the FW did... It was weaker by the it's armament but it had an endless amount of MGs for Enemy aircraft. The P-47 was more idealy suited for ground strafing... and the P-38 Lightning was shockingly maunevarable and durable...had everything a good fighter would want In the end I don't see that rockets and or Jets had much of an impact on the war. Due to backwards minds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 With all the strategical mistakes Hitler made himself, since his Generals virtually never agreed with him. If he'd kept one promise (not going to war until 1942) and still made all those mistakes, , we would be living in a sad world. His Sub commander told him that by 1942 he would have 10x more subs in service... ouch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 Indeed the infamous German U-boat fleet may have suffocated UK supply and without Fuel or Food. The Nation would've surrendered! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 http://www.acepilots.com/german/fw190.html anyone interested in Fighter statictics for WW2 can check the above link, quite informative and detailed site. There were pros for for Certian planes. Certianly 109 was a great Scramble Fighters. the 190 on certian ALTs was a superior aircraft to the p-51. Overall though... the #s don't ring out that way, for whatever reason. You could almost vote on the aircraft and there is even a site to do that I'd vote P-51 Spitfire Corsair FW-190 ME109 ZEKE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 Liam "In the end I don't see that rockets and or Jets had much of an impact on the war. Due to backwards minds Exactly, given leaders with foresight and the entire situation would have been radically different. Good point on the ME 109 pilots attaining parity with the Spitfires primarily through dint of superior experience. Some of their top aces liked the FW 190 but chose to stay with ME 109, which is a little curious. Adolph Galland, master air combat tactician, was put in charge of Germany's Jet Fighter pilots late in the war. An air wing of jet fighters with good range in 1940, manned by those same elite pilots and led by Adolph Galland, would have been a chilling proposition for the RAF. Even if the bulk of German fighters were still ME 109s, they'd have been freed to deal with the Hurricanes while the jets went after the Spitfires. Once they were allowed to work on jets that didn't have to also be fighter/bombers, German designers came up with some excellent ideas, most of them comparable to planes of the mid-fifties. By then Germany lacked raw materials and the substitute elements didn't do the trick. One outstanding jet consistently fell apart because sub-standard glue was used in it's construction. [ August 25, 2003, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 My personal belief of,"Why did the USA get tech & nukes first"? Simple, God & his Son the Lord Jesus Christ is on our side. It's just his plan...moving to Revelation, Legend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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