I will never loose as the Germans

[murks]

Panzer leader? I've read the book and I must say it was quite boring. Pages and pages of "...at 10 a.m. I met colonel suchandsuch in the village of dunnowhat and discussed something with him. Then I drove to the neighboring village of xxxx to check the state of the elements of the XXVI.th blah who had been fighting there...".

I have read much more interesting books on the subject.

[Artos]

The Germans were on the strategic/operational defensive so the opportunit to find a test with equal numbers, equipment, supply is not bright. One thing I find interesting when people discuss this topic is that ground numbers get compared (or for the truly clueless, the number and level of formations), while excluding allied air superiority (almost complete supremacy) and the paralyzing effect this had on the Germans. Equal numbers on the ground aren't equal when the killing and boggling power of that many aircraft having virtual free reign above and behind the battlefield.

[Marlow]

Originally posted by Artos:

The Germans were on the strategic/operational defensive so the opportunit to find a test with equal numbers, equipment, supply is not bright. One thing I find interesting when people discuss this topic is that ground numbers get compared (or for the truly clueless, the number and level of formations), while excluding allied air superiority (almost complete supremacy) and the paralyzing effect this had on the Germans. Equal numbers on the ground aren't equal when the killing and boggling power of that many aircraft having virtual free reign above and behind the battlefield.

True after 1943 on the Western Front, after the Western allies destroyed most of the Luftwaffe, but by the same logic, German victories in 1939 - 1941 are similarly "tainted," since Germany ussually had air superiority.

Also, it doesn't apply to the same degree in the Vosges campaign (my example of an "even fight." See the previously mentioned book by Bonn). Weather made air support a non-factor. It might have have an impact on supplies, but this is neutralized to some degree by the fact that the Germans were on the defense in an area that they had lots of time to fortify and build up a supply base.

[Marlow]

Originally posted by Artos:

The Germans were on the strategic/operational defensive so the opportunit to find a test with equal numbers, equipment, supply is not bright. One thing I find interesting when people discuss this topic is that ground numbers get compared (or for the truly clueless, the number and level of formations), while excluding allied air superiority (almost complete supremacy) and the paralyzing effect this had on the Germans. Equal numbers on the ground aren't equal when the killing and boggling power of that many aircraft having virtual free reign above and behind the battlefield.

Also, while Germany was on the stratigic defensive, I take issue with the Germans being on the operational defensive. Hitler was always looking for a chance to go over to the offensive, and did in a number of situations. The 21st panzer at Normandy (and more broadly the attack in the beachhead), the Mortian counteroffensive, Wacht am Rhine, Norwind, the attack against the Anzio Beachhead, etc... Not to mention the counterattacks in the east thattook place even into 1945.

[Artos]

A pleasure Marlow.

My post was a reply to yours on equal forces. (I was thinking of the western front as you were using Vosges and American v. German forces.) I offered a simple (and necessarily limited) reason for the difficulty in finding the examples like Vosges.

Concur on Vosges. Concur on the early German victories.

As for the operational defensiveness/offensiveness (in the west), my perspective is that operational defensive dominated German operations. There were exceptions, as you illustrated. No dispute over Hitler's intentions. The intentions, however did not match the reality. German generals in the west were handicapped by low priority for reinforcement and supply, compounded by air interdiction and morale problems, all of which grew in significance as the western campaing progressed. They made the most of the opportunites presented (and made), yet, to me, the operational defensive was the most common choice (necessity) at the time.

I respect your knowledge and your presentation. Our lack of agreement is likely more a matter of degree and perspective.

Thank you also for the heads-up on Bonn's book. I just read through a batch of reviews of the book. Looks good. Interesting how the reviewers can leave you wondering if they read the same book.

[ev]

Originally posted by Artos:

The Germans were on the strategic/operational defensive so the opportunit to find a test with equal numbers, equipment, supply is not bright. One thing I find interesting when people discuss this topic is that ground numbers get compared (or for the truly clueless, the number and level of formations), while excluding allied air superiority (almost complete supremacy) and the paralyzing effect this had on the Germans. Equal numbers on the ground aren't equal when the killing and boggling power of that many aircraft having virtual free reign above and behind the battlefield.

There is an entry in Rommels Diary (or what was saved of it) dating back to the days in North Africa; it went something like "we are fighting two wars, a war of men and a war of machines, and whomever wins the war of machines will win the whole of it."

Well, the words may be off. But by 1944 Germany had lost the war of machines. It no longer had the planes, tanks, and even the trucks to win the war.

Germany had superb soldiers. Most of them realized by 1944 that the war was lost.

[murks]

In the end, germany was increasingly loosing the war of men, too, having to rely on the very old and the very young and "volunteers" from occupied eastern european countries.

A quote from a german general: "If we are expecting Russians to fight for Germany in France against America, we are asking rather a lot".

As a result, allied soldiers outfought their german opponents on several occasions, D-day being the most important case.

[JayJay_H]

Originally posted by Marlow:

[QB Hitler was always looking for a chance to go over to the offensive, and did in a number of situations. The 21st panzer at Normandy ...[/QB]

The Pz IV's from Panzerregiment 22, 1st batallion 80 tanks, 2nd batallion 40 tanks had their engines running, alarmed and ready for combat + waiting for orders while the infantrymen from 716.ID were bleeding to death at the coast; the grenadiers saying: with 20 panzers we could throw em into the sea. operative decisions were made more than 1000 Kilometers away from the battlefield. The high command refused to believe it was the real Invasion, thinking (because of faked intelligence info) d-day was only a distraction from the forthcoming landings near calais. When finally the orders for counterattack were given, the sun had risen - no german tank could make a move in daylight. And like the 21st PzDiv was ready and would have been able to drive the anglo-americans back into the sea before the bridgeheads had been too strong, the 12.SS-PzDiv was ready also, while the decisiviest hours passed and the armoured reserves near the coast were not released. Rommel was visiting his family at home in Germany, otherwise he would have given the necessary orders on his own authority. Another example proving that falsities and coincidence are the most powerful generals in any war. This has been so since the greek, the romans, Wallenstein and Napoleon.

[ November 14, 2002, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: JayJay_H ]

[JayJay_H]

Originally posted by murks:

In the end, germany was increasingly loosing the war of men, too, having to rely on the very old and the very young and "volunteers" from occupied eastern european countries.

That was a particular case with the ukranian Hilfstruppen, most of the normandy coastguards were WWI veterans, undertrained paratroopers or Luftwaffe Field units which were not very battle tested

[Marlow]

Originally posted by Artos:

my perspective is that operational defensive dominated German operations. There were exceptions, as you illustrated.

Quite right, I did not intend to imply that an offensive operational stance was the norm, only that it did happen.

[Marlow]

Originally posted by JayJay_H:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by murks:

In the end, germany was increasingly loosing the war of men, too, having to rely on the very old and the very young and "volunteers" from occupied eastern european countries.

That was a particular case with the ukranian Hilfstruppen, most of the normandy coastguards were WWI veterans, undertrained paratroopers or Luftwaffe Field units which were not very battle tested</font>

[Marlow]

Originally posted by JayJay_H:

Another example proving that falsities and coincidence are the most powerful generals in any war.

Not so much coincidence as the German Military intel. service being absolutely awful. Probably the single worst element in the entire German military establishment.

[JayJay_H]

Originally posted by Marlow:

Seems our views arent as contrary as i first assumed

[jgdpzr]

Originally posted by Marlow:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JayJay_H:

Another example proving that falsities and coincidence are the most powerful generals in any war.

Not so much coincidence as the German Military intel. service being absolutely awful. Probably the single worst element in the entire German military establishment.</font>

[jon_j_rambo]

I've seen some talk about Allied play & how to win. Won't happen.

It doesn't matter, I smoke all Allied strategy. I've just finished off 4 new opponents & still UNDEFEATED. If you wanna try some Allied strategy, I'll be glad to take care of business.

jon_j_rambo@yahoo.com

[BriantheWise]

Mr. Rambo, well you are not yet undefeated yet in our game. That will still take some time, so don't be calling me number 5. Yet.

ON the other hand, be German, but in 1943. I'll challenge you to that, simultaneous with our game. (and now I know what that odds thing is, so be careful. Before I was running on instinct).

Smile.

[stahlwolf]

Hello, I am new here, anyway i want to add some thoughts on the discussion above.

As far as i remember there is a reason america built the atomic bomb after the d-day and the german defeat. Simply because they had not enough uranium. They captured the material needed for the critical mass near Paris, were french scientist researched the use for gaining electricity (for the Reich of course). This information is not very solid, as i do not have the source at hand, i try to find the book again.

The other point is, somewhere above it was stated, that the Wehrmacht was poor in urban fight. This is true not to all battles of WW2, especially the battle of Berlin showed the opposite ( 2 Million Russians fought about four weeks to defeat 50.000 german soldiers)

The germany was without doubt outnumbered in several ways. The sheer number of enemy states & mobilized armed men & vehicles shows this.

Anyway there is a point that also helped killing the 3rd Reich, many citizens hated the new germany and betrayed their fatherland by giving plans of new planes to the allies etc. there are many, many cases that often avoided a technological step too far away from the allies. This is a remarkable differnce to world war I were everybody in germany fought together. It is due to the Naziregime, that people hated their own land.

[Canuck]

Just thought I'd bump Rambo's first ever post on this forum.

[Supreme Axis]

I don't want to be a run on sentence. Though as far as German superiority during WW2. Well, it's agreed that in 1941 the German was the best equiped, trained and experienced soldier. As far as the Leadership, obviously Germany has produced such greats as Erwin Rommel, Manstein, etc...most of the White population in America is German. They call them the silent majority... Even all this included, it's been proven that in actual warfare we kicked their ass. They bit off way more than they could chew. If the French would have had their tanks in mass and READ the the modern tactics of the time. They would have destroyed Hitler. The Somuas and the Char1s made the Panzer II IIIs series look like rolling coffins. They just didn't have good leadership and weren't prepared. Stalin's great purges and personal insanity held him back from possibly invading Germany before vis versa. What did he kill 80+% of his officers? Sheesh! Come on now! Hitler isn't the only "oops!" leader of WW2. Chamberlain gave Hitler half his med. tanks<the T38 which was an excellent tank> comparable to any German tank. What a dumb butt. If the Allies would have listened to people like Churchill, WW2 would probably ended in 1942 with the fall of Berlin. Also America, sat on her laurels whilst her Mother was be busted up left and right. Bunch of weak leadership going on there. Isolationism? Come on, we speak the same language and we are economically intertwined. The War was lost from the onset....

"Russia is like this....<paraphrazing> Like a Big Elephant you can run in and stomp out millions of ants but in the end they will eat the elephant to the bone!"

[jon_j_rambo]

Memories...

[Liam]

Hmmm Axis, sounds like quoting me;)

[aesopo123]

Rambo,

I'll take your heine and give you a good spanking! I'll take the 39 campaign on beginner level. Siberian transfer on, fog on, free french on, partisan on, entry for other countries random. No undo. If you are brave even to commit suicide of giving me two experience levels, I will take that too.

Email me aesop123@hotmail.com anytime and you'll usually get a reply by the next day or if on the weekend maybe few.

Your firing squad is ready...

[Liam]

Heh, unless you're editing only AI offers that option

Originally posted by aesopo123:

Rambo,

I'll take your heine and give you a good spanking! I'll take the 39 campaign on beginner level. Siberian transfer on, fog on, free french on, partisan on, entry for other countries random. No undo. If you are brave even to commit suicide of giving me two experience levels, I will take that too.

Email me aesop123@hotmail.com anytime and you'll usually get a reply by the next day or if on the weekend maybe few.

Your firing squad is ready...

[Comrade Trapp]

Originally posted by aesopo123:

Rambo,

I'll take your heine and give you a good spanking! I'll take the 39 campaign on beginner level. Siberian transfer on, fog on, free french on, partisan on, entry for other countries random. No undo. If you are brave even to commit suicide of giving me two experience levels, I will take that too.

Email me aesop123@hotmail.com anytime and you'll usually get a reply by the next day or if on the weekend maybe few.

Your firing squad is ready...

LOL!!!

This has got to be the number 1 noob quote of all time.

No worries young paladin, you'll learn.....

[jon_j_rambo]

assopo123 --- Dude, I'm sort of retired. Was pulling out an old thread for 2-years ago, memory lane. If you would like to pursue your fate, contact me on ICQ# 234993018 for TCP/IP. Playing you wouldn't violate my non-compete retirement pension bonus, more like an exhibition. I figure it won't take long.