SC vs. 3R, other oldies

[MrSpkr]

I am considering buying SC, and have downloaded the demo (though it is a bit confusing to me -- I hope the manual for this is good. I don't even know how to stack units!).

In any event, I have been playing these types of games for about 30 years, starting with PB and 1776, then moving on to 3R, The Russian Campaign, Midway, Jutland, VITP (there was a great beer and pretzels game), etc., etc.

So, I guess my question is, if I liked 3R (and I was never one of those incredibly anal guys who ran theoretical mathematics calculations to determine where to attack), will I like SC? I would love to hear from some of you guys that, like me, grew up in the old board wargame climate (AH v. SPI -- wow, THERE'S a few memories!)

Thanks.

Steve

[Curry]

I am also an "old" war gamer. Way back to the early days of S & T. All is I can tell you is that I enjoy SC very much.

[ October 11, 2003, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: Curry ]

[SeaMonkey]

MrSpkr, Cut my wargaming teeth on AH-"Tactics II", D-Day, Midway, AK, B of B, subscriber of SPI's S & T magazine, still have all the games. If your that old, like me, don't waste anymore of your precious time (what little you have left), enhance your life, improve the quality, run, ...don't walk.. to the nearest outlet for SC and purchase it for whatever they ask, money is no object here; then join the forum....additional bonus....play PBEM or TCP. "SC"...gotta luv it.

[J P Wagner]

If you like 3R you will not be disappointed with SC..there are no stacking of units in SC so you do need to divorce yourself of 3R gameplay when approaching this game...at the price, it's well worth the money...below is a Strategy Guide which you can peruse. It will offer many insights into the game and whet your appetite to play it..... enjoy...

http://ww2n.com/schq/SC-StrategyGuide-Rev1.pdf

[kurt88]

To give a more impulsive and slightly ignoring response:

BUUUUUUUUUUYYYYY THEEEE GAAAAAAMEEEEE!!!!

Seriously,if you like strategic wargames SC will give you your money's worth,especially in multiplayer.

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

A better question will be more likely will you be disappointed when SC is NOT 3R or COS or any other previous grand strategy wargame.

But the fact I am a fanatical A3R player, and I consider SC a solid good purchase, need anything more be said

SC is its own game, it will have a lot of things in common with other grand strategy wargames of this time period. That is to be expected.

SC has it's quirks, so to do all the other games out there we like.

But in the final analysis, SC is a grand strategy wargamers idea of a grand strategy wargame done well.

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey

"... Cut my wargaming teeth on AH-"Tactics II", D-Day, Midway, AK, B of B, subscriber of SPI's S & T magazine, still have all the games. If your that old, like me, don't waste anymore of your precious time (what little you have left),..."

Now that's depressing -- Well Done!

[ October 10, 2003, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Rambo game history: AD & D, Squad Leader, Cross of Iron, Crescendo of Doom, GI Anvil of Victory, Civil War, Conquestador, Rail Barrons, Circus Maximus, 1776, 3rd Reich, Risk, Axis & Allies, Castle Risk, Supremency...just to name a few.

If I didn't have such a sorry computer, I'd try alot of the new war games. Until then, it's SC.

SC is a great game, buy it. It is much better than 3rd Reich.

[Gaylord Focker]

MrSpkr, SC is a fun game and i think you'll like it.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

If I didn't have such a sorry computer, I'd try alot of the new war games. Until then, it's SC.

Just curious... some while back you told us about that great... BONANZA!! that you got, in the Stock Market I think it was... 5 Grand! or more, wasn't it?

Anyway, why didn't you use some of that hard earned loot to buy a new computer? Nowadays, you can get a 2+ Gig Rocket-Ware... for a relative pittance, and so you could then play all those new high octane games, no?

Well, just wondering, and you needn't reply, or provide a Financial Statement... showing all those debts to the bookies and the plumbers and those lost bets at Pebble Beach, or Boise Municiple Golf Course etc...

To address the question at hand: Advanced 3rd Reich remains the best war-game ever made, to this day, and perhaps someone will convert it to the computer, which would actually allow it to be PLAYED, given that few of us are patient enough anymore to take the required time to set up all those 4-6 and 3-3 units.

Having said that, there is every possibility that SC2 will become JUST detailed enough so that... EVEN A3R will be... almost forgotten.

I am confident that... if you like 3R and A3R, then you will likely like the original SC. No worries that your little stacks will fall apart because you stuck a 1 or 2 sized Air unit somewhere in one of them, and you with those clumsy, hunter-gatherer fingers!

Also, no terrible results, like failing to take Paris with a 1-1 attack by rolling a 6 on the die, which is, as all former 3rd Reich players can appreciate... attacker destroyed! :eek:

[ October 11, 2003, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Immer Etwas --- Actually, I made $8500 on Calypte Biomedical (CYPT) in early September. I bailed on that stock at 1.50, it currently resides around 1.35. Check out my other new plays: MSITF, ADOT, & OMOG. Those are my penny stock plays. I take "the real cash" & go after Blue Chips, I LOVE to sell covered calls, try to make 3-5% a month.

Why slow down the cash flow when I'm hot in real life (StockMarket). Plus, I need Cable internet too. Cash is King, going for $100,00 goal before I buy a new car too.

[jfstup]

this game is great fun and user friendly game but unlike 3R,TOTALER KRIEG, AND AXIS&ALLIES it is unbalanced strongly in favor of axis player. there seem to be two basic causes of this. one is the victory conditions. the axis can run up a lot of points by destroying a lot of corps of weaker countries(for which they get 1 vp for each unit they elim. and size or cost or type of unit makes no difference) whereas the allies though causing lots of damage to axis units, seldom elim. an axis unit. the #2 problem is the economics of the game. the axis as they gain territories by conquest or minor allies gain production points to build and these never go down by attrition or use, so they are able to build far more units with more manpower and resources than they had or ever would have in the 6 or so years the war lasted. some have complained on this forum that the USA isn't given enough resources but as they were fighting a 2 front war their production may be closer to correct for the purposes of this game. i hope to hear pros and cons of these comments and i think you will love this game.

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

I have to disagree.

The Axis can get mangled just fine, I know hehe.

If you want to play the Axis and get a but stomping, merely select a player with a bit more experience with the game.

I played the Russians in 41, I got stomped.

I am playing the Germans in 41, and guess what, I am not butt trashing the Russians just because I am the Germans.

The game comes with a lot of random variables, and who you choose to play makes a big difference too.

Getting bored, ask one of the hardcore to serve you a slice of humble pie and show you how good you actually might not be heheh.

I can just see it now, "come on Rambo hit me I dare you........whack!!". "Well he told me ".

[kurt88]

I agree with Les here.I got slaughtered on more than occasion by seasoned Allied players.Axis don't guarantee anything.The game can be over before France falls.

Besides the bidding system tries to compensate some of the Axis advantage between equal players.It makes for a different game every time.

[Dan Fenton]

I played all of the old Avalon Hill games, including Third Reich, for about twenty years before converting primarily to computer games around 1991.

Strategic Command (SC)is far better than Third Reich! SC is a much cleaner design. Yet SC is also an unusually deep game. SC is faster to play because the computer handles so many tedious details. The no stacking is a good idea. It makes game play much faster and easier with few real sacrifices.

I would highly recommend buying this very reasonably priced gem of a game.

I would also suggest reading the free stategy guide that Bill Macon wrote with some small assistance on my part.

[MrSpkr]

Okay, I think I'm sold.

I'm going to try the demo out (though I am still confused as to what I am doing clicking and clicking and watching results -- instructions aren't real clear here) and if I like it, I'll order it later this week.

In addition, I am ordering the 7 black and white prints. My wife said we can design my office in our new house around those prints.

My wife is cool.

Steve

[John DiFool]

Totaler Krieg-I disliked this one because of its

lack of any substantial Battle of the Atlantic,

but the event cards rule. I'm hoping SC2 has some

sort of analogous event/variant system as an

integral part of the game.

JD

[pzgndr]

I would also suggest reading the free stategy guide that Bill Macon wrote with some small assistance on my part.

While I wholeheartedly agree with Dan to read OUR Strategy Guide, I must disagree with his modest assessment of his assistance. Dan provided pages and pages of useful feedback. In cases where I threw in various player comments that I didn't necessarily agree with or threw in my own opinions that didn't cover the whole story, Dan provided balance. The end result, at least in the Revised Edition, was a much better product than I alone could have produced.

And MrSpkr, the inspiration for the Strategy Guide was that old Gamer's Guide to Third Reich. Many of us cut our grizzled teeth on that wonderful game, and can favorably compare SC with it.

[ October 12, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Bill Macon ]

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by MrSpkr:

Okay, I think I'm sold.

I'm going to try the demo out (though I am still confused as to what I am doing clicking and clicking and watching results -- instructions aren't real clear here) and if I like it, I'll order it later this week.

Steve

Demo's are for little girls, just buy the game already! It's only 25 bucks or something.

[Curry]

Originally posted by Gaylord Focker:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MrSpkr:

Okay, I think I'm sold.

I'm going to try the demo out (though I am still confused as to what I am doing clicking and clicking and watching results -- instructions aren't real clear here) and if I like it, I'll order it later this week.

Steve

Demo's are for little girls, just buy the game already! It's only 25 bucks or something. </font>

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Dan Fenton:

Strategic Command (SC)is far better than Third Reich!

Far better?

Well,

I would disagree.

SC...2, may be... far better,

And maybe not,

We'll have to wait and see.

It's like that... Love of Your Life.

O, momently lost, and so... hey Joe!

Forget the cost, the woe,

The Throngs, with all their wrong advice!

You've got to... quit

Acting so

Broken-in-soul, and nice,

And just... go out

And get her! :cool:

SC is faster to play because the computer handles so many tedious details.

Yes, it is faster, and unfortunately, IMHO, so is our modern Life style... there seems to be... a fortuitous match here.

It makes the game play much faster and easier with few real sacrifices.

Again, that... need for speed! :eek:

I call it the Lightning Life.

Cell phones instead of patiently detailed letters.

Driving 20 MPH over limit so you can get across town 5 minutes faster... consequently, missing the Exciting Einstein Perspective ... you and The World moving together, at odds, and little moments, and large lush panoramas, and, Old Loves... in all that rip-trip & rush... lost.

And fevered and idiot-illogical Media talk-shows instead of slow and patient, and carefully reasoned dialectic, ... which may somewhat explain... how...

We end up in ill-considered Wars, :eek:

And how... we execute ! political prisoners, even though it later turns out that they were actually... innocent!

Time to take a good long look around, I am thinking, and... slow down. :cool:

Computers can do many quicksilver and occasionally wonderful things, but, they can't give you...

EVEN... ONE EXTRA... SECOND,

In your (... extremely brief) Life.

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

SC is a great game, it does a great job at doing what it does. Sure we want a few tweaks.

Third Reich was a great game, but we were not happy, it became Advanced Third Reich. I generally won't say anything negative about TR, but I will play A3R over it hands down every time. It's simply better.

SC might get the same treatment some day. I am sure it will get as much out of the improvement as TR got out of A3R.

But one thing I have to say quite clearly. A3R has not been equaled on the board game scene or in the computer realm yet. Not even close even.

The only reason I play SC, is because I am a demanding wargamer. And it met my demands.

[ October 14, 2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Les the Sarge 9-1 ]

[Asok]

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

Also, no terrible results, like failing to take Paris with a 1-1 attack by rolling a 6 on the die, which is, as all former 3rd Reich players can appreciate... attacker destroyed! :eek: [/QB]

5.

Paris isn't a 1-1 attack. 1-1 attacks are made against Gibraltar and Leningrad. I remember one game conceded by the Axis after rolling two 5's in a single turn: one against Gib and one against Leningrad. Talk about a turning point...

[Dan Fenton]

I really enjoyed the many hours that I spent playing Third Reich (3R). Usually, four of us would play the sides of Germany, Italy, France/Russia and UK/US.

One of my very favorite games was when I played Italy and lost Italy during a surprise and unplanned turn flip/flop (when a side gets to move twice in a row). The brillant UK/US player created that victory when the opportunity presented itself. Everyone agreed that it was just bad luck on our part. I then became the German West Front commander.

The original German player eventually had Russia back to the Urals, but could not yet defeat him according to the victory conditions. The poor France/Russia player got pounded the entire game.

My UK/US opponent was one of the most skilled players that I had ever met. He managed to land in France around 1943/1944 and to exploit Allied armor to attack at 2 to 1 on Paris. He rolled the dreaded 4 followed by a 6 combination (Counter attack at 1 to 1 followed by defender eliminated). I believe that the odds of that happening was around 1 in 32. The next turn we destroyed the Allied bridgehead.

The UK/USA player built up for another invasion of France. I pleaded with my German partner for more German forces in France. Russia was so close to surrendering. I got the minimum garrisons again.

The UK/US player made another brillant landing and exploited to Paris with another 2 to 1 attack. Much to everyone's amazement, he again rolled the dreaded 4 followed by a 6. The next turn we again destroyed the Allied bridgehead. I never saw such a frustrated player in all of my life. It broke his spirit. The West Front held for the rest of the game. So did Russia.

I do not miss the many hours that it took to set up, play and put away 3R. We never could play through a full game on a Sunday. We had families and could not spend all weekend playing one game. I do not miss the many arguments over the poorly written rules.

I don't miss having to examine each stack, each turn to see what was there. I do not miss the need to plan to optimize attacks and place odds counters on stacks and stacks of units before rolling the die many, many times. I don't miss someone sneezing or opening a windy door and messing up the game pieces.

One of my old 3R buddies came over to play my new Christmas present copy of Advanced Third Reich. It took hours to set up and to try to play. We gave up. I have never used it since.

I love and greatly prefer the efficiency, the convenience, the generally realistic simulation and the just plain fun of playing Strategic Command.

[jon_j_rambo]

3R was boring, lame, & just plain NOT fun to play. As everybody has already stated, the sorry combat charts were a joke. Gee, lets play for 12-hours & roll the six-sided die for Lennigrad. I send 2 3x3 armies, a couple of finns, couple of panzers (4x6), & all my air. One die roll decides the fate of the Russian front.

It might be fun if it was a mail type game, not live. Sitting & waiting toook soooo long. To properly make a good turn, you need 2-hours to calculate all teh possibilities.