Willard Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 Jersey and Emil- I must have "cross" posted, because I did not see your subsequent additions until I finished my last post. My last post was written in response to Jersey's post of December 17, 2002 02:16 PM. I have just finished reading your posts but dont have time to respond now. I will either later tonight or tommorow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 Willard -- No harm done and you're right. My original wording did go a bit far in one direction. I was not consciously trying to reverse it later but perhaps subconsciously that may have been my intent. Glad we were able to discuss it all openly. As for the wording of these entries, none of us are contributing to a major periodical or being paid for what we're doing, so a little tolerance and the benefit of the doubt would go a long way -- especially as these things are often added using spare time that barely exists and we aren't necessarily looking down the road and anticipating how others will interpret every nuance. What I was trying for in the initial posting was to get additional input from Emil; I gave no thought to leaving myself open to attacks of pandering or being a nazi sympathizer -- why should I have? Emil didn't just start this forum out of the clear blue, so he shouldn't be attacked for having instigated something. He started it because myself and others made inquiring remarks regarding his logo, which led to several confrontaional and somewhat heated entries in another forum between myself and a fellow poster, all of which has been subsequently resolved. It's my impression that Emil wanted to avoid future squables of that sort and was his main reason in starting the forum. My apologies for the lynch mob insinuation; the only reason you were linked specifically is you were the last posting I read before flipping out. As I've said before regarding another poster, sometimes I get a bit thin-skinned and defensive. No offense intended. you're obviously an objective person. Emil Thanks for the follow up and all the info you've made available to us. As was said before, no one who has any information at all on the Hitler Youth and what it must have been like to grow up in Nazi Germany would fault you on your activities in the war. You had little choice in the matter. My apologies also to you for the tone of that later posting and it's reproduction in this forum. I felt only something extreme would get you to say something. You have my extreme respect for saying things you weren't obligated to say and for helping to clear up an era that most of us have no firsthand knowledge of. I don't believe there are sides in this sort of thing, only a gathering of information from all sides and perspectives. Again, thanks for making yours public. No objections to this thing being moved to the General Forum area if it were done as presented so far; but from what I've seen all that means is having this forum locked up and if you feel like resuming it you should go to the General forum and start from scratch. I find that somewhat unfullfilling. Even having the original transferred to the general area and erased from the game area would be okay, but seeing it locked up and a dead end, well :confused: [ December 17, 2002, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Seibold Posted December 17, 2002 Author Share Posted December 17, 2002 As I said in the post done just 5 minutes before you, I am not on 24/7. Perhaps I was at home brooding about all those Jews I killed during the war, and how I should feel guilty for Joe Stlin and his bunch of communist friends-Hitler was bad, but Stalin was worse-its just that he was on the right side of the line in 1945. I never killed one person outside of combat, and neither did most of the Whermacht and Waffen SS. (MOST, not all-we had a few, just like the allies.) I never "Defended my home in the sewars of Stalingrad". That particular "honor" goes to the brave men of 6th army, who like the Russian soldiers who faced them were merely fighting for their homes-only the German people were doing it in a slightly more offensive manor. And don't patronise me on that one-after the war the Russians conquered all of Eastern Europe by putting in place communist lackies. Even many of the jews (and even russians) who had experienced the pain and suffering at the hands of the NAZI's (not the germans, but cowardly nazi scum who's name I feel ashamed to have on my fine units bannor) agree that communism was just as bad, worse even. Its just that communism came out the right side of the second world war-History is written by the victors. I am not ashamed for what I did in the war, which was to fight as a soldier. Just like the American, British, Canadian and other allied soldiers who fought in that war, I do not loose any sleep at night. I was an honourable soldier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emil Seibold Posted December 17, 2002 Author Share Posted December 17, 2002 I also did not read these replies-sorry for the harshness of my last post, but all that I said remains. Any other questions, condemnations or otherwise from our audience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willard Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 Ok, I have read some of the last posts, but I need time to digest them and it is too late for me to do that tonight. Emil- please continue with your posts and I understand that we will need to wait for your responses. Also please understand that on certain things we are going to have to "agree to disagree." Jersey- I think this thread should remain open for now. However there needs to be some strict monitoring. I am not an illiterate oaf like some might think and there is some value in presently continuing this thread. If we can keep it here for all to see, great, I just dont want it lost in the general forum. If there are any mods out there, your input would be appreciated. BTW, a bit off topic, some info on Emil's namesake... Seibold joined the Totenkopf Standarte in 1940 as an infantryman and was transferred to the Das Reich Division in November of that year as a motorcycle dispatch-rider. He later went on to command a self-propelled gun in the same kompanie. In 1943 his battalion was equipped with captured Soviet T-34 tanks and Seibold as commander of one of these tanks scored a total of 65 kills. He went on to command 8th Company, 2nd SS Panzer Regiment of the Das Reich Division and was one of the last of to be awarded the Knights Cross from this Division. Seibold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 Emil -- A fine posting and thanks. I've only read about the post war Stalinist policies in Eastern Europe, but everything I've read has been horrific. Whether Hitler or Stalin was worse is a close call. Your experiences are of great historical value. If you haven't already done so, I hope you'll take some time and put them in written form for this and future generations. I've know dozens of people who lived in Europe during the war and have had ten or so uncles who fought in it. They're all dead now and to the best of my knowledge none of them ever recorded a word of their experiences. I hope you don't do the same. All people of all nations have parts of their history they're ashamed of. And it's important they all learn from the past. In America, during the post-Vietnam days I saw a little of the stab-in-the-back attitude among fellow vets that ran rampant in Germany during the 1920s. Had Vietnam been larger and more catostrophic in it's consequences to Americans at home there's little doubt in my mind many of those disgruntled vets would have been ripe for organizations like the SA. As in your country, we were millions of vets who felt we'd been served up on a platter by power brokers who didn't give a damn about anything. Had our losses been a million and a half dead instead of sixty thousand there's no telling what the aftermath might have been. That being the case, it's quite likely my own country might have taken a swing to the extreme right, as yours did following the Weimar debacle. Which is why I think we should all be tolerant of each other and try to understand past events before making future judgements. Your point about Stalin is a good one. As somebody said a long time ago, "History is the Winner's version." [ December 17, 2002, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 Willard -- "I am not an illiterate oaf like some might think " Not even in my most livid moment did I think that was the case. I bypass illiterate oaf's without responding. A posting has to say something important enough to respond to, either positively or negativly, and important thoughts rarely if ever come from illiterate oafs. You've already proven that you have definite opinions and they're worth listening to. Looking forward to the entries you're planning for later. Agreed on the monitoring -- unfortunately that usually means the guy with the nightstick and padlock! -- * Thanks for the info on the real Siebold. One of my uncles was also a motorcycle dispatcher, but for the Americans. He's still alive though I never have the chance to speak with him these days. The two things he used to talk about from his army courier days is (1) he hates the government for billing him for the motorcycle he lost in soggy mud and (2) how riduclous he thought George S. Patton looked pointing in the wrong direction for an "On to the Rhine" publicity photo he saw them shooting. [ December 17, 2002, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkctanker Posted December 18, 2002 Share Posted December 18, 2002 I must say one more thing about this, those of you who point a finger at those who did such terrible things and seem to be monsters. I'm 48 years old, worked more than afew jobs in my life and if I've seen abuse in power once I've seen it a thousand times. It must be human nature to take advantage of power, every boss I've ever had save one has abused power. The Nazi Germany of the forties is an extreme example, who knows how they would react in the same situation. I wonder about myself in this if I would not become courrpted by it. You may say you would not but how can you? No one would know, it would start out small and just grow and grow from there. A student from China asked me if Americans were more interested in money or power. I told him they were head to head on the list. We must be careful not to make the same mistakes others have through history and I think we can. So this is what I have learned in the 48 years, don't point fingers or it may come back to bite you on the ass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted December 18, 2002 Share Posted December 18, 2002 mkctanker Well said. As the old adage puts it; Absolute power corrupts absolutely! There were numerous psychology experiments conducted since WW II principally in the U. S. and Britain exploring these same questions. The results are frightening. One finding is: Most people everywhere are capable of committing monstrous acts if directed to so by higher authority. One done in the '60s involving college students as prisoners and jailors that was scheduled to last something like a week had to be stopped after a few days because the jailors were becoming too brutal! [ December 17, 2002, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert Cater Posted December 18, 2002 Share Posted December 18, 2002 Moving this to the General Discussion Forums... Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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