Ideas for Neutral Nations

[vonManstein39]

First of all, let me say that I'm looking forward to this game with great anticipation - I'm a Clash of Steel fanatic, and I've wanted an update to that old game for years.

Some ideas for more gameplay variations:

1) Start the game with no-one at war. Let Germany declare war on any nation.

2) Allow for a 'VERY' small chance that Britain and France will not declare war when Germany attacks Poland - so we can see what would have happened if the Allies had not stood by Poland. In this instance, Britain and France will certainly enter the war if Germany attacks any other neutral country EXCEPT the USSR, which they didn't care about. So we can also see what would have happened if Germany and Russia had fought it out between themselves with the West staying neutral.

3) Give the Allies a very small chance of persuading Italy to stay neutral or even join the Allies, perhaps through bribing Mussolini with several African territories? (reducing Allied production)? Maybe with a delay built in because Italy wasn't ready for war in 1939. Il Duce wasn't especially pro-German, he would have backed the West if they had paid him in advance.

4) Allow the USSR, under AI or player control, to attack the Baltic States or Finland in 1939/40.

5) Allow the Allied player the option, (or provide the AI with a 'VERY' small chance) to declare war on Russia(!) (The British did seriously consider this option historically when Finland was attacked and the USSR appeared to be an Axis ally. If Finland had held out longer and Norway had not been invaded, an Allied force would have fought in Finland against the Soviets.) An Axis Russia could possibly invade the Baltics, any adjacent pro-Allied Balkan country, Turkey, or the Middle East. Also an Axis Russia could have a small chance to treacherously change sides and stab Germany in the back, this chance slowly increasing year by year.

6) Variable US entry date into the war, dependent on political events as in COS. The Axis could have a very small chance of severely delaying the US entry.

7) Finland should be a normal neutral country, able to join either side. Should be very hard for Russia to defeat early on. Finland could have a change to change sides if her ally (Germany or Russia) is close to defeat.

8) Italy should have a chance to surrender or change sides if she is losing much territory on the Italian mainland, joining whichever enemy side (Axis, Allied, Soviet) has the most forces in mainland Italy.

9) Same as above for the Axis Balkan states, possibly joining the Russians if they are losing badly in their own country.

[Desert Dave]

If Germany had not attacked in the West -- unlikely, since Poland was the final straw from the French point of view -- and they had the massed army on the Continent, not Britain -- had been able to unleash all those fresh, gung-ho troops at USSR, I expect that they would have defeated them... except, if France had then modernized their ancien doctrine, especially in regard to tanks, which were actually stronger than the early panzers, and wheeled through the Ardennes toward the Ruhr.

As far as Finland, Russia was just too hesitant, for whatever reasons -- maybe due to Stalin's senior-officer purge, and could have conquered that country -- therby denying an assault on Leningrad from the North... I hope this will be properly simulated in the SC game.

[vonManstein39]

Thanks for reply - I think it would be very interesting, Germany vs. Russia in May 1940. Compared to the historical invasion in June 1941, Germany would have been stronger in the air (no Battle of Britain) but weaker on the ground. Russia would have been only slightly weaker numerically but would have had very few modern planes or tanks.

If Germany was losing badly against Russia, France might have attacked her in the west, but Britain would probably have stayed neutral. Chamberlain and Churchill were both very anti-Communist as well as anti-Nazi.

In the Winter War between Finland and Russia, Finland lost 25,000 troops while Russia lost 250,000 - ten times as many! This taught Stalin a severe lesson and he respected the Finns ever after - that's why he was relatively lenient with them after they came over to his side in late 1944, and didn't occupy their country and impose a Communist government on them like he did with the other Axis minor allies.

Plus, after the Finns sued for peace at the end of the Winter War, Stalin wasn't expecting any further trouble from them and saw no need to conquer them completely.

[Wally's World]

Originally posted by vonManstein39:

Chamberlain and Churchill were both very anti-Communist as well as anti-Nazi.

Plus, after the Finns sued for peace at the end of the Winter War, Stalin wasn't expecting any further trouble from them and saw no need to conquer them completely.

Chamberlain may well have been an anti-Nazi but he also didn't want to do anything to stop Hitler and his expansionist moves until the Rhineland had been reoccupied by Germany, Austria was forcibly merged with Germany and Czechoslovakia was betrayed at Munich. It was only until Poland that Chamberlain's hand was forced. To me, he still appears to be "The Appeaser".

As for Finland, I think Stalin backed off taking over all of Finland because the Soviet Union got what they wanted from the treaty with the Finns, Stalin knew that France and Britain were getting ideas together to help Finland and lastly, Stalin found out that the Red Army needed a drastic overhauling right away after the Finns gave them a good pasting.

[Desert Dave]

... on my way out the door -- too bad there is such a thing as Work -- gets in the way of game playing... luckily we can set up a scenario -- from what I've read so far about the scenario game-tools, anyway, and try out the Leibensraum First! strategy -- it would be ideal to play it against another person, as opposed to AI, though, maybe we shouldn't judge beforehand... maybe that AI will be formidable indeed.

I knew that the Russian had great troubles in Finland, but didn't realize it was 10 to 1 in casualties. Also, the Fin was inspired by a charismatic leader, I forget his name?

Well, the USA -- what with old Joe Kennedy's influence and the American Bund's agitations, was not all that keen on Russia's potential might either, so perhaps you are right that Britain would not have backed France's play... was the West Wall in place? If so, and if France's attack lacked finesse or even, any mailed-fist urgency, Germany may well have pressed on toward Moscow, and merely played defensively in the West.

[Mr. Clark]

Couldn't all this be accomplished with the scenario editor?

It sure will be fun to play around with!