SC vs COS

[Riprocket]

Hello all,

I played Clash of Steel for years, and still think it's the best WW2 Europe grand strategic game ever made, board or computer. Alas, it is long in the tooth now, doesn't run well on newer operating systems, and never really had a good PBEM interface. That being said, I would assume a great number of you on this forum have played both games. My question is, how do the two games compare? SC, from what I've seen looks almost like a clone of COS but I can't tell for sure. If I'm a big COS fan, would I be disappointed with SC, or does it stack up well against COS? What are the pros and cons vis a vis? Thank you.

Riprocket

[JerseyJohn]

Riprocket

The maps are similar but not much beyond that. In many respects I think COS is vastly superior and don't feel bad saying it as I've said it fairly often in the past. Hubert's made a different sort of game; it's unfair to compare the two.

For one thing, COS has a much different combat system, the units are different; HQs in COS are army groups and much stronger, though serving a similar command and supply purpose.

In SC there is no combined attack, as there is in COS.

The weather is different, in COS it's great, in SC it's Miami Beach all year round -- okay, just joking Mr C.. But certainly no more severe than Virginia Beach, even at the Urals in December! The only weather effect is the units move a little more slowly. As you know from COS, the Russian winter effects a lot of things and the first one is often a killer. Elsewhere there's also snow and mud, which effects things.

The Naval screens are absent in SC.

SC represents the world after a drastic shift in it's tectonic plates; most of the United States has slid into the Pacific and American is divided by the Atlantic, with no land connection between the U. S. and Canada. Also, what remained of the two has shifted drastically eastward. Using the SC map, my father and myself would have wound up in Ireland during most of his crazy 1950s rowboat excursions out of Sheepshead Bay, NY, with land a distant memory; there was nothing that guy wouldn't do to hook a bluefish!

In COS, North America is on a different planet somewhere.

Units are limited in COS and there's a production menu.

So on and so forth.

SC is easier to play.

As you play more SC you'll see that the differences are legion. In some ways SC is better than either COS or High Command.

[ October 09, 2003, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

One of the things I liked about clash of steel is that the Axis AI would select one of three war strategies to follow - including launching a Sea Lion invasion of the UK.

SC has great PBEM and TCIP features for playing against humans.

Read the strategy guide (available online) to get an overview of the game.

[ October 09, 2003, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[J P Wagner]

JJ, some expansion of your comments if you please...you start off by saying that "COS is vastly superior" and provide a number of examples why this is so.....you have me attaching my drool cup to my chin as I see the type of game SC should become...then you finish off by saying "in some ways SC is better than either COS or High Command." but then you close shop....besides mentioning ease of play, which is never an issue for me, are there other features in SC that are better than COS, AI competancy for example?... I know there were older threads about COS but I do not recall a direct point by point comparison between the two...since I never played COS I'll be intrested in the comparison.

[Comrade Trapp]

Is there any websites where you can download COS or High Command? Wouldn't mind trying them out.

Comrade Trapp

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

If your computer is even close to current don't waste your time dreaming about them Comrade Trapp.

I have those two games via old collection cds. Both won't run on anything remotely current to the best of my knowledge.

That and they hail from the days of need to input word such and such from manual copy protection days.

[Liam]

Another Huge advantage of Planning around Weather for the Allies anyways, is the timeline mattered by the time '41 hit, you're in a race to readiness to smash the Soviets. I would always love to launch my attack early and tack my goals before Winter was in Full Boom, or right as...

COS, been a long long time since I've played it, as I remeber. hours of endless fun even if SP

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Riprocket:

...would I be disappointed with SC, or does it stack up well against COS?

Another great name for our SC board! Sounds as though that V-2 is mounted, bristling appointed, and rip-rip! raring to go!

Anyway, you would be sure sorry if you didn't acquire SC... I have been playing war-games since Bismarck was a tyke, and I can honestly tell you that SC is, simply, great FUN!

As for COS, well, it was all right in its day, and has a few features that SC doesn't, but, IMHO, it ain't half the game SC is.

There are a few features that I would like to see SC2 adapt: 1) The slower introduction of new units (... and delayed appearance of new models of old units), and 2) A diplomatic schematic that supposes some gamer input to effect Minor entry.

You won't go wrong buying SC, and the added benefit is the sound and superior PBEM/tcp-ip set-up! :cool:

[roman uk]

Strategic Command

COS

High Command

Three great games, three different solutions to resource and strategic management (of course of beer and pretzel variety).

IMHO:

High Command: best resource/economic/political

model

big map

awful AI, tedious interface

COS: best tactical/strategic battle model

(surround and eliminate: the essence of ww2)

weather

Strategic Command: most adaptable

naval implementation

interface and ease of use

Having played HOI I dont think it ranks with the above three.

you can get COS and Hicom on abandonware sites and there are work arounds (and websites) to run on modern systems.

The ideal would be to integrate the best features of each... one could hope.

Roman

[nanope]

The weather was fine in COS not only for the effects of russian winter but also because of it determine the ideal moment of the allies to do landing.

Also I missed the engineer units. They were able to fortied all kind of terrain and this could provoke important modification in the tactics of the players.

[J P Wagner]

For the COS players...was the Allied AI aggresive and launch invasions in areas other than western France? Would the AI take advantage of a weakly defended Italy, Greece, or Libya as examples?

[nanope]

Yes...It was very typical the invasion of Sicily...but always at summer. Then 1943 and 1944 when the good weather was approaching the axis player had to prepare for a landing.

The engineers was specially util to made fortification along the probably landing coast.

[Liam]

I'm a huge fan of some of Paradox Games. HOI is not to be underrated... If you were to let yourself get into a game on that 'level' you could love it. The first title I bought of theirs, EU1 was absolutely boring. I couldn't figure out how to demand anything after I had succesfully completed a DOW.

I bought EU2 hoping it would be an improvement and I was sorta dissappointed but after a lot of tweaking she's a classic in her own right.. I play 3 or 4 games regularly weekly and you may have up to 10-24 multiplayer games. Not a very reliable on-line game but for the dedicated Wargamer/Economist/Expanionist/fan of Colonization and empire building she fits up there. She is a joy...

SC is on the lines of COS and High Command. I thoroughly enjoyed both the other titles and I drank them to the last drop. SC held my commitment of time much longer due to the fact it's Multiplayer. It's also EXTREMELY reliable Multiplayer...!!!huge difference, even for those guys who have 8086s of modern times

HOI is something that has detail down to individual planes, vehicle uprgrades. Individual Convoy ships, precision Supply system. Which can at times be a headache. Anyone who enjoys WW2 woule likely enjoy it given the time to get over the learning curb and being able to play against real live oponents. it's a little tedious... Something is missing and overly resembles EU1-2, comming Victoria and other Paradox releases...

Strategic Command definitely is better than anything out right now. I own HOI but I regret purchasing it... I haven't put the game to use and it's collecting dust... and SC is a much better steal!

I think for Beer and Pretzel Wargames she's top notched right now. quite frankly, can anyone name a single WW2 Strategic Sim out right now? I consider HOI semi-strategic and very geo-political, blah blah blah...

Axis & Allies is fun just because.. just the chance aspect and it more resembles Risk type BoardGame Genre

[kurt88]

HOI is something that has detail down to individual planes, vehicle uprgrades. Individual Convoy ships, precision Supply system. Which can at times be a headache. Anyone who enjoys WW2 woule likely enjoy it given the time to get over the learning curb and being able to play against real live oponents. it's a little tedious... Something is missing and overly resembles EU1-2, comming Victoria and other Paradox releases...

HOI is getting better and better with each patch,one day you'll decide to give it another go and you'll love it.When it first came out it was a disaster,but you gotta praise Paradox for their commitement.EU2,same story.

No point in comparing SC to HOI,they're totally different.

I do hope Hubert picks up the event-engine for SC2 though.

[Liam]

Kurt:

Events Rule! They make the game and distinguish each Nation. In all the HOI Engine, they work around a criteria of achievement with a mixture of chance...as with all Paradox Games

and indeed HOI is a fine detailed WW2 game I'm certian Patches will improve. Although SC is more realistic Simulator of WW2 than HOI is the irony is detail doesn't make one more realistic than the other. Despite House Rules on either side. The tech system for HOI needs to be cut down and simplified. Countries need to represent more realistic levels of achievement. Material Resources and Unit capabilities need to fit... You play at a very snails pace and it's a huge political game and preparation game for War that a lot of people would love.

I personally think EU2 is a level up in playability, despite they may seem a lot alike..

[ October 09, 2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

[kurt88]

Liam,

I agree all the way.

HOI is a bit tedious,but that's micro-management,some love it,some can't be bothered with it.Try playing Space Empires IV or MOO3

EU2 has less of that so should be a step up in playability.

SC is more straightforward,direct action,lot's of tactics...macro-wargame.

Anyway I love'em all.Especially the events,they add SO MUCH to the game.

[J P Wagner]

I would have enjoyed HOI alot more had it been turn based like SC..even though you can slow the RT down to a crawl, I still found it annoying .....but, I did like the events and tech tree and thought the graphics were well done... I guess that the old addage "different strokes for different folks" will always be a truism in wargaming since all the titles have thier support audiences....

[JerseyJohn]

JP Wagner

You're right. I'd intended to go back and list some reasons but I lost my connection and only came back online this afternoon.

Basically, I came to the end of that list and realized everything I was writing was in favor of COS. If I'd gone into HiCom, with it's diplomatic options and excellent treatment of weather, etc., the comments would have swung even further away from SC to other games. So I ended it pushing the simplicity / ease of play angle.

Like yourself, I don't care much about that part, as long as a game isn't unplayable it's easy enough, provided it's good.

The Truth is, in terms of representing the war in Europe, I'd take both COS and HiCom over SC. There only defect is they're too old and slow moving to run properly, if at all, on a Windows platform. Hopefully SC2 will catch up to and surpass them.

Comrade

Sarge is right, they both need a slow DOS system or they'll crash. What's worse, both programs use a lot of EMS memory, so they need a boot disk with a special configuration. The best I've ever managed with them on Pentium II is the title page, then a crash, even after tinkering with the run properties.

For a long time HiCom was supposed to be converted to Windows, but I've heard that project has fallen by the wayside.

[ October 09, 2003, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[kurt88]

The best I've ever managed with them on Pentium II is the title page, then a crash, even after tinkering with the run properties.

I just downloaded COS and that's exactly what keeps happening even with a bootdisk.

Now I''l probably never get the chance to play that one.

[xwormwood]

Riprocket:

Buy SC, it is worth each cent.

What is better in SC:

STRATEGIC BOMBERS (forget this idiotic strategic bombing from COS, which was very buggy as well)

Units can achieve experience (just like in Panzer General)

Neutral Countries have more and better armies

No purchasing limits (buy hundreds of german battleships if you like / play against me )

The hex-color changes instantly into the color of your country if you move on enemy territories

What i miss from COS (apart from the already mentioned features):

-the history replay (was always great to see the entire war compressed into 20 seconds...)

-Strategig SEA war (send ships / subs to raid / to hunt raider). BTW: Sea Battles ARE fun in SC!

-ordering fighters NOT to intercept incoming planes

-Mullberries (place your own harbor)

-deadly tanks (they are much more vulnerable in SC)

What i miss from Storm across Europe:

Garissons-strengthpoints

anti-air-strengthpoints

fake armies / airfleets

REAL paratroopers

techs to research (Transports, amphibs, escorts, mech.infantry, tac air, paratroopers)

[ October 09, 2003, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by kurt88:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The best I've ever managed with them on Pentium II is the title page, then a crash, even after tinkering with the run properties.

I just downloaded COS and that's exactly what keeps happening even with a bootdisk.

Now I''l probably never get the chance to play that one. </font>

[Riprocket]

To all,

Thanks for the input and comments. I read in one of the posts about an SC2 being in the works, is this true and if so, any idea what new things may be incorporated? I'll probably end up buying -- for $25 what can go wrong. For those interested here's a link to get COS, and a forum for help running on newer machines:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/clashofsteel/

Thanks,

Riprocket

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by Riprocket:

To all,

for $25

yes, SC is a real bargain

when you start to play it: don't act like in COS (read the strategy guide, do yourself a favour)

[HolzemFrumFloppen]

Originally posted by kurt88:

HOI is getting better and better with each patch,one day you'll decide to give it another go and you'll love it.When it first came out it was a disaster,but you gotta praise Paradox for their commitement.

I'm still enjoying HOI after nearly a year. And yes, the patches have greatly assisted in HOI's ongoing evolution.

The thing I like about HOI is the amount of "stuff" that's under the hood.... and there are still many who are trying to figure it all out. Of course, I still love hex-based games like SC (esp. when I don't feel like rolling out HOI in all its mammoth glory). But I have to agree that HOI -- like Hubert's gem -- keeps you coming back for more.

[JerseyJohn]

Things I don'g miss about COS:

The Soviet Pioneer unit building lines of defenses as strong as the Maginot Line long before Russia is involved in the war; it's a game killer and was a stupid idea to have added prior to an Axis invasion.

Russian readiness coming at weird times, often before the end of 1940; another game killer.

The AI working under different rules than the human, being able to transport more troops per ship, buy things more cheaply, have allies come in who would never enter for a human, that sort of thing. Whenever I give the AI the Axis I can be reasonably sure it will end up with Spain and Turkey! A human player never gets that.

Having entire large units, including army group / HQ pieces, dissolve in failed invasions. That needed to be fixed. Even corps should be too large for that.

Various program bugs which were never corrected by the manufacturer, or at least not for the various multi-packs SSI packaged it in when DOS gave way to Windows 3.1. In case anyone still comes into one of those relics, a specific problem in those packs is the player has to write a SAVE file into the game file after the program is downloaded in order to save his games.

I made a phonecall to SSI back when this was still a marketable item and the guy on the other end said something like, "Well, this is all bundled by another department, I'm not even certain we developed that game so there isn't much I can tell you there, fella!"

Which is another thing I didn't like about COS and also about HiCom, the game designers seem to have changed their names, gotten plastic surgery, and moved to the Arctic Circle with neither an address nor a telephone.

[ October 10, 2003, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]