Elite units?

[kurt88]

What are your opinions about including Elite units in SC (if at all possible,prob not since 1.07 seems to be final) or maybe SC2?

I don't mean completely new units,but 'upgraded' existing units,with additional techs attached to them.

For instance Waffen-ss corps or army,i.e. an army or corps with better attack and defend values.These units wcould become available after tech's been researched.

I don't know if this would really add something to the game...

I read on older thread where this question was raised by Rouge but no consensus was reached. here

Any thoughts?

[Panzer39]

How about charging more MPP for troops to show up with one bar of experience.

[kurt88]

How about charging more MPP for troops to show up with one bar of experience.

That's certainley something to consider.

But would elite units profit from experience (you can't 'buy' that) or would they benefit from better equipment and be more indoctinated?

[Panzer39]

Well they could be "elite" because of extra training or trained to use better equipment thus the experience bonus. I think this method would keep the game simple yet offer more options. I stole the idea from Peoples General (I think) where you could buy better trained units. The experience bar gives a combat bonus that could represent the better equipment. It could be a counter to an opponent who has better tech. Example: You have level 1 jets your opponent has level 2. To counter you buy two "elite" air fleets. These cost you more money but their expertise helps off set your opponents tech advantage. Maybe put a cap on the number of elite units you can buy.

Take it further by adding a new tech that adds to the experience level that new units start at. For each level let the bar go up .25 or something similar.

[ August 05, 2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Panzer39 ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

I think the problem with what you are asking for, is that you are really asking for two different things. One being a distinction between units with different equipment, the other being the distinction of an elite unit.

There have been some discussions here that when you get a tech upgrade, only newly purchased units should reflect that higher tech. All of your older units have to pay to be "upgraded". I believe almost everyone agreed to the concept.

The elite unit status SC already represents properly thru the experience bar. You are correct, that certain nations should start with different experience bars to reflect the differences in training and doctrine. German units should start with two bars of experience (which you can reflect in the starting scenario). Then any newly purchased German unit, representing its training, would start at one bar of experience. The same concept would apply to the other nations but with different values. But if you do that, you really do need a time limit on when the unit arrives, no more "instant" units.

Thru the campaign editor, you can reflect the proper experience bar ratios already. Its just that the newly raised units start out as "untrained" units, which isn't so bad since they are "instant" units.

No way should you be able to "buy" units with extra experience bars to get "elite" units. It just didn't happen that way. A nations training doctrine should represent the number of bars its newly raised units would receive, but you shouldn't be able to get better units just by spending the MPPs.

[JerseyJohn]

We've had earlier threads on this. Among the conclusions we reached, unit size seemed the most limiting factor.

Commandos and Rangers were ballion sized and used where the mission called for their deployment.

On the Axis side, the SS sometimes formed corps sized units but were usually distributed as divisions. Late in the war, when there were larger SS formations, their overall competance had dropped. By then they were drafting non-Germans by the tens of thousands and, in effect, were functioning as regular army.

The Ghurkas and other crack troops were also organized as small formations.

Leaving Airborne, which functioned as a corps at Crete for the Germans and Arnhem for the Allies.

We had entire web pages debating whether or not SS and Airborne should be represented. The Marines were also tossed in, despite being used almost entirely on the other side of the world.

[Night]

I would LOVE to have elite troops. I often select 3 or 4 of my Top unit's in Russia and make them the SS and use them carefully in important operations. Usally they have to have like 3 bars of exp. for me to want to use them in this special role. I alway's wanted to be able to have ready elite troops with more training.

[kurt88]

I can understand the size limit that JerseyJohn points out.Also I agree that 'instant' units shouldn't receive extra experience at their entry.

That said let's take into account that SC2's map will be quite larger than SC's (hopefully) so there will be room for more units.It just seems to me that along with the bigger map there should be some kind of unit (elite or whatever you wanna call them) that can take advantage of the extra space.

Values for attack,defence and movement depend on equipment,experience and way of transport.And on a bigger map there's more room for a variety.

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

I remember this discussion some time ago. Especially about the SS. There is a book and darned if I can remember the title. The authours premise was that the SS were not the elite units that most thought them to be.

Yes the received extra training, however their perceived "Elite" status came from the fact they were first to receive new equipment and replacements. Thus giving them the edge over the heer units that were played out.

This authour did quite well in his argument. Drew a lot of flak for it too.

The best way to simulate this in the game was touched on above. Rename several of the units SS. Like a panzer corps or two or how many you wanna have.

Then when it comes time to replace losses, replace those units losses first. Even to the detrement of any other units. Got a SS panzer corps at strength 2 and a heer corps about to die at strength 3? Too bad, so sad heer guys. SS gets replacements first.

Wanna make things really screwed up, just like they were in nazi germany? Add a bunch of luftwaffe ground combat units. Why the luftwaffe had to have a panzer division is stupid. Goring and his vanity, no better than Himmler.

I really wish I could find that book again. I have a bunch of friends that do an SS impression (2nd SS Panzer Das Reich) that really need to read it. LOL Of course they hate it and they hate the being reminded that their "elite" SS was stopped by the untermensch around a little town in Russian called KURSK.

LOL

[JerseyJohn]

Konstantin

You might be talking about Das Reich by Max Hastings. It's subtitled, The march of the 2nd SS Panzer Division through France.

That's the fun loving group which, on it's way to Normandy, tarried to hang numerous, and I mean numerous numbers of civilians from lamp posts along with wiping our and burning the entire village of Oradour-sur-Giane, killing it's entire population of 642 men, women and children. The ruins were preserved as a monument.

I believe the SS, while among the most feared, were not deserving of the high combat reputation they've revieved over the years. They were feared because they were murderers without a conciense. Like the Hermann Goering Panzer Division, their units were often larger than those of the regular army, and as you mentioned, much more well equipped.

Going slightly off-topic:

During the eighties I used to play chess with a great old man, a widower, who I knew from tournaments. His neighbors knew him as "The Swede." When he became too physically limited to travel I began regularly going to his apartment to play him socially, though we used a clock and played under tournament conditions. Eventually, after we'd discussed history on numerous occasions, he began losing his lifelong caution and started telling me about his World War Two days.

He was the genuine article, with photos and souvenairs hidden away which he proudly laid before me. Some of the photos he snapped were of dangling bodies, all ages and both sexes. There were also some of people being shot.

Though shocked, the truth is I honestly liked the guy and continued going to his apartment, playing chess with him, sharing dinner and listening to the LPs of chamber music he always played. A while later I went over and the apartment was empty. The building super told me "The Swede" had a stroke and his son moved all his stuff out right away, he didn't say what hospital his father was in and had left no forwarding address. In all the years we'd played chess he never mentioned having children and the only photograph he ever displayed was that of his wife.

There was never any doubt in my mind that he'd been a capable enough combat soldier, but I had several uncles I can say the same about, and they never had a shoebox full of autrocity photos they thought of as nostalgia.

I think of the Soviet Guard units as being roughly the equivalent of the SS, only without the psychotic bent.

[Shaka of Carthage]

I've read a few books on the Waffen SS. I don't remember the book in particular, but I do remember the theory.

Basically, the Waffen SS in the early years, when it was a couple of divisions deserved the "elite" status. The regular Army didn't like them because they didn't act like soldiers, they acted like fanatics. So instead of fire and maneuver to take out a position, they would just charge the position (hmmm... kinda the complaints the Army has about the Marine Corps). You also got alot of the "mavericks" that had problems with the Army. Modern day military know what I am talking about. And since the Waffen SS was selective, it could pick and choose.

You ended up with a unit that was better than a regular Army unit. In SC terms, it wouldn't be that far off to take one (1) Corps and rename it Waffen SS and keep it at three or four experience bars.

In the later years, when it was expanded to ridiculos levels (48 divisions) it lost any claim to being "elite" from training. This is when its claim to fame was that it got the best equipment first. It had 10% of the manpower, but 25% of the Panzer/Panzergrenadier units. In SC terms, you can name Panzer units "SS" to reflect that, but they were no better than the regular Army units. Since SC doesn't make the distinction between equipment, you can't show that.

Post 1943 is when the number of German divisions lost any meaning. Depending on how you count them, there were 300 to 500 German divisions. Most where in name only. Most wargames that try to represent that period agree on a breakdown like this.

250 Panzer, Panzergrenadier, Paratroopers and Infantry divisions.

20 Security divisions.

40 Static divisions.

3 Cavalry

25 Waffen SS

6 Luftwaffe "field divisions"

Security divisions where actually regiment size and had the old men, disabled, POWs and "whitebreads" (medical discharges).

Static divisions had the same kind of personnel the Security divisions had. Someone, I think it was Rommel, used these units to "hide" regular manpower to defend France, since all of these were stationed there. Once OKW figured it out, they stripped them as well for the East. The "Reserve" divisions are sometimes lumped together with these, but they were totally different creatures. Reserve divisions really are nothing more than the training commands. But they were pulled into combat as well. There was an old movie, where VMI or some other acadamey in the South took its cadets, led by grey beards with wooden legs and went to battle against a veteran Union regiment. Same concept.

Cavalry, including the SS cavalry were like the British Houseguards (?). Ceremonial. I would suspect that anyone who had political pull who wanted to stay out of the Russian meatgrinder ended up here.

Luftwaffe field divisions where all the Luftwaffe men than had no jobs anymore (since there were no pilots to fly the planes). Gave them rifles and told them to fight as infantry. Would have been better off going as replacements to the Army, but by then the political lines wouldn't allow it. As soon as they entered combat, they were destroyed. This is what happens when you send men into combat that are not trained.

And finally you have the Goring Panzer Paratrooper Division. It was his personal bodyguard and while all other German units sufferred big losses, these guys grew. They also got the best equipment. By the time they were finally put into combat, they were so large that they were split into two seperate divisions. Gotta love politics.

[JerseyJohn]

Shaka

Great post. I think it can be said that when Germany had divisions by the hundreds what it really had was a few hundred brigades with some legitimate divisions in the mix.

I know from my Air Force days that most of the guys I knew were very well trained, but in specialized areas -- mainly mechanics and supply, fuel handlers and various other functions. There must have been many relevant positions in the German Army for many of those Luftwaffe technicians. Handing out rifles and telling them they were infantry, as you mention, with little or no training, was absurd.

The problem was Goering and Himmler both wanted large numbers of armed men to stake their succession claims on in the event Hitler died during the war.

It was a little like Ancient Rome, when Pompeii, Julius Caesar and Crassus each had to command their own armies in order to make the First Triumverate viable. Except, of course, at the time Rome wasn't being invaded from all sides!

[JerseyJohn]

Kurt, Night & Panzer

I kind of like the idea of elite units as well, but I think much of that, throughout history, has largely been mythical.

Napoleon, for instance, originally had a handful of veterans which he called his personal Guard. After he made himself Emperor they were expanded and became the Imperial Guard. By the time he invaded Russia he had a Guard Army within the Grand Army, not only containing French Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery Guards, but Polish, Italian and German Guard divisions as well. The kicker is he was afraid to use them at Borodino, where they might have given him a decisive victory, because he knew for sure he could rely on them in case things went wrong, as they later did!

By Waterloo he had Old, Middle and Young Guards which were resented by other divisions because by then they were doing most of the fighting and despite being crack troops, drew none of the recognition or benefits that the guards received. In the battle, the Young Guards did an incredible job holding the right flank against the approaching Prussians, but as everyone knows, the Old Guard were wasted in a foolish attack where, for the only time in it's history, the Imperial Guard retreated.

To me that's part of the problem with elite units, they draw away from the rest of the army.

Another example is the Japanese carrier pilots. When their elite air crews died at Midway -- their carriers having been sunk they ditched their planes and many were lost at sea -- the Japanese had nothing to fall back upon. The next major naval air action is forever known as the "Great Marianna Turkey Shoot" because American aviators said bagging the green Japanese fighter pilots was like shooting at turkeys. The U. S. Navy and Airforce, instead of forming elite squadrons, kept rotating personnel to keep all it's units on a uniform skill level. True, this deprived it of a single knock out unit, but it also meant any of it's parts could do the job without a worry.

[Edwin P.]

The functioning of army units often depended upon the capability and leadership qualities of their commanders.

The units under the controll of Marshall, Rommel and Patton both had different approach to war.

Suggestion 1)

Perhaps units should reflect this with a different set of unit characteristics for rare units.

For example, an Army Unit under the command of Patton might receive 1 extra AP. An armor unit commanded by Rommel might receive a +1 soft attack bonus.

Each time you purchased a unit their would be a 5% that its commander would give it a special quality bonus/penalty. These unusual units would be rare.

Suggestion 2)

You could also say that the production of an elite unit (with 1 bar of experience) and better equipment takes 2 turns to produce. Thus you could spend 250 MPP to get a standard Army unit immediately, or spend 250MPP to get an elite Army unit in 2 turns.

To limit the production of elite units you might also say that they must appear in their capital city hex. This would limit the production of elite units to 1 unit per turn.

[Shaka of Carthage]

The suggestion you made about limiting new unit builds to the capital city, is something that was suggested along time ago as a solution to normal units.

By making it so you only got one unit a turn (Soviets would get three), you've just solved the "instant" unit problem in SC without making alot of software changes.

A modified approach to that as well in ports, would also give a easy fix to the "instant" ship building. Hence one port per nation could build a Cruiser, Battleship or Carrier, while any port could build a Submarine. Ships are a minor issue, since the not many of us, if any, have enough MPPs to build multiple captial ships at once.

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

I think of the Soviet Guard units as being roughly the equivalent of the SS, only without the psychotic bent.

Guards units weren't really elite just experienced. The Guards title was an honorific given to a unit that fought bravely or successfully.

For instance the unit we reenact was renamed Guards after the successful liberation of Kiev. Basically all you got was a title to be proud of and a nifty little guards badge to wear on your tunic. Nothing else in the 112th changed and they definately weren't elite.

If I had to look for an elite unit in the RKKA I would tend to go more along the lines of Naval Infantry. It wasn't so much the training they received as some were crews of ships without ships, no formal infantry training. However it was the elan of the uniform. Something mysterious about the Black Death as the germans called them.

Of course they got slaughtered by the bucketload just like any other soviet unit.

The red army didn't really have an elite force like the US/British/Germans. It would have run counter to the soviet socialist doctorine of equality.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

I'm riding the top of all the forums! Weeeeeee!

[JerseyJohn]

Konstantin

Yes, that's pretty much what I meant, that the Guards were not elite but on a slightly higher level than other Soviet units, which is how I see the SS. The Guards were higher through extra experience and the SS through better equipment and fanatacism.

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Konstantin

Yes, that's pretty much what I meant, that the Guards were not elite but on a slightly higher level than other Soviet units, which is how I see the SS. The Guards were higher through extra experience and the SS through better equipment and fanatacism.

I'm sorry, I must of had a moment of insanity. It's been so stressful at work. Now I see what you meant.

Yeah, it could be easy to simulate in the game by renaming red army units with experience Guards units.

That would pretty much match all they got in reality. LOL

[SeaMonkey]

Nice thread, I agree with elite units. Just the other night I made some adjustments to "Weltflotte", incorporating US and Royal marines (corps size) with 2 bars experienced, 11 strength, only 2. Then for the Germans, created I & II ss panzer corps, they are at strength 1 (have to be built) but have 4 bars experience. In this way the player has the option of employing them at what ever strength and experience level they wish with additional MPP investment. Presently its the only way I can figure out how to represent "elite" status with SC1 engine. Also have been able to create some "recon" units, low strength strat. bombers and subs with lvl 4 research tech and 2 bars experience with only 2 strength to simulate their fragility. Its seems to work, anyone else have any ideas?

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey, you've done it again!

"they are at strength 1 (have to be built) but have 4 bars experience. In this way the player has the option of employing them at what ever strength and experience level they wish with additional MPP investment."

That's a very interesting idea. Of course, if they ever reach full stength and still have four bars they'll be unstoppable, but who's to say such corps size units could not have been created. Anyway, I like this approach much better than just creating full units with a lot of experience.

Konstantin "That would pretty much match all they got in reality. LOL" The primary designer of the AK-47 said something like that in a History Channel Documentary, along the lines of, "In America I'd have received dollars, unfortunately, what I got instead was Ribbons!"

[ August 06, 2003, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

The primary designer of the AK-47 said something like that in a History Channel Documentary, along the lines of, "In America I'd have received dollars, unfortunately, what I got instead was Ribbons!"

Yeah I saw that program on Russian small arms. We have a running joke amongst us soviets whenever we see a chest full of medals.

Hmmmm Increased Tractor Production 5th Class Very good comrade.

Trust me there is a lot of humour in it.

[Shaka of Carthage]

I worked this stuff out with the experience bars and in light of what SeaMonkey said, I'll give the info here. (If someone wants it, I'll post the progression rates for each strength point increase).

One (1) strength 4 bar exp unit in one turn can become a ten (10) str 1 bar unit. If you increase the strength one (1) point a turn, you get a ten (10) str 2 bar unit. You can "fast track" it so that after three (3) turns, its a ten (10) str 1.7 bar unit.

Three (3) strength 4 bar exp unit, incremented one str pt a turn, after four (4) turns becomes a ten (10) str 2 bar unit.

A one (1) strength 2 bar exp unit, will give you a ten (10) str 1 bar unit (ie trained) if you are patient (incr 1str pt a turn).

A ten (10) str, 1 bar unit on average, after three (3) combats, will be a eight (8) or nine (9) str, 2 bar exp unit.

Whats the point of all of this?

A two (2) bar exp unit gives roughly 35% more damage and receives roughly 100% less in combat. Its even more deadly at the higher levels.

PS... I consider the exp equivalents as follows.

0 = untrained

1 = trained

2 = veteran

3 = crack

4 = elite

[ August 06, 2003, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[kurt88]

Whats the point of all of this?

You're right!If that is the case there's no sense in working that way.

Therefore why don't consider alterations in the diceroll (+1 ?) and maybe in the movement values?

[JerseyJohn]

"Trust me there is a lot of humour in it."

Konstantin

I do trust you and I do see the humor of it. I have to because the way New Jersey is getting I'm starting to work for ribbons myself!

Kurt

Without knowing whether it's feasable or not, I believe you've hit upon the right approach just now.