Dear Sgt. Emil

[SeaWolf_48]

Dear Emil

Your pretty brave behind a network, are you a real a 12SS Div. Hitler Youth member. My Father was in the 82nd Airborne (not the 101st which is so popular now, which was made from an 82nd regiment the 501st, the 82nd had 5 combat jumps against the germans) during WWll. He didn't jump at Normandy, but jumped into Nijmegen Holand, fought in the battle of the Bulge around St. Vith north of Bastogne, and in Operation Versity (Jumping over the Rhine into the Ruhr) the biggest airborne operation of the war. After the war the 82nd All American Airborne Div. were MP's in Berlin to try to keep the peace in war demolished Germany. He respected the German soldier and spoke of there toughness, he told me of the 88mm AA gun and how you didn't hear the round until it hit near you. He had many friends die at a young age (cut down in their youth because of german bullets).

I asked him if he killed any germans, and he looked away sheepishly and said, "yes". He didn't brag about taking a human life, but understood the responsibility of serving in a Armed Force. Well, he missed you, whoever you really are, but I suppose that your not a kraut eating goose stepping pollock raping napalm sucking weasel, nazi. Proud of your service during the war, proud of the 20 million dead in Europe because of the unjust over bearing treaty of Versailles. Well, paybacks are a mother. Half of a country for fifty years, 1.5 million MIA's in Russia, cities bombed into rubble until there was nothing left to bomb but Dresden. I guess "sieg heil" hail victory, is what the Allies could chant in May 1945.

But that's not what is important now, how about Germany backing the US in Iraq? We built you back up during the 40's and 50's, made a Republic in that Germanic forest of roving hords of Huns, and gave you a great economy with the latest technology, and not to mention a great culture, with programs like "Dallas" with JR, and Baywatch (Ha Ha).

Germany is so liberal now that they are now preaching "peace at any cost"!

I welcome your responce so called Emil. Why didn't you pick someone noble like Michael Wittman?

Reluctantly yours,

SeaWolf_48

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Although I support Emil, i do agree that modern Germany has become more Bolshevik than East Germany from 1946-89

CvM

[82ndReady]

Here!! Here!! SeaWolf_48 I agree and stand behind you on what you have written, my father served in the 101st but in the 60's he had 2 tours in Nam and many medals and wounds to show for his fight for our country!

I support and help run a group for the 82nd A/B Div that Honor Veterans 82nd A/B L.H.A. Sunday was our end of the Year Christmas dinner and we had 2 veterans there Bud Rice whom flew Troop transports and Jack Williams of whom was in the 325th GIR, your words hit home.... yes who is this guy Emil ????

[ December 17, 2002, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: 82ndReady ]

[sogard]

Germany is democratic and stable today. That is what Allied victory wrought in 1945.

The notion that the Federal Republic of Germany is Bolshevik is simply preposterous. A vision of a right wing loonie. It is obvious that the writer does not know what a Bolshevik is.

[ December 17, 2002, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: sogard ]

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Originally posted by sogard:

Germany is democratic and stable today. That is what Allied victory wrought in 1945.

The notion that the Federal Republic of Germany is Bolshevik is simply preposterous. A vision of a right wing loonie. It is obvious that the writer does not know what a Bolshevik is.

Ouch, that hurts Sogard. But I do have a basis for my comments. The German people are weak, they are weak because their leader and their Government is more left than ever. Bolshevik may be a bit harsh, but preposterous it is not.

CvM

(Right wing loonie )

[JerseyJohn]

SeaWolf_48

American war vets of any era and any war are usually reluctant to discuss what they've done in battle. I've found the same is usually true of the British. Usually they'll tell things for posterity, but not because they enjoy talking about it. I've also found that for some reason Europeans who fought in the Second World War are more open about it. From what I see it isn't a matter of lying or telling the truth, it's a difference in outlook.

But getting to the point:

Why are you stomping this guy?

If he fought in a Hitler Youth outfit he wasn't very old at the time. He certainly didn't start the war nor could he have gotten around to killing twenty million Russians. If he was 16 in 1945 (just a guess) it means the Nazis took power when he was four. It means the entire time he was in school he was fed a steady diet of nazi indoctrination and if, after twelve of his sixteen years he believed all of it and there are tracings of brainwashing that linger to this day that's more cause for sympathy than ridicule.

Just as a real hero isn't supposed to go around boasting about his deeds, a nation of real winners shouldn't go around sticking other people's face in manure, especially sixty years after the fact and especially when the other person wasn't even an adult at the time.

A lot of what Eric says, or perhaps the way he says it, rubs me the wrong way as well. Maybe he has no other way of saying it. But one thing is for sure, he's not telling these things so every random character who wants to take shots at him can sling mud in his face. And why the hell would you want to? Is that supposed to be some sort of courage? What, the courage of the one-sided bully stomping through town?

Getting back to Emil -- at the very least I think he should either drop or alter his logo. It's inflamatory and easily misunderstood. But it's his choice. We're supposed to cherish the right having choices, aren't we?

Germany had it's innumerable Lidice massacres at the personal decrees of deranged leadership. The United States, with supposedly sane leadership, produced it's My Li massacres (there were many more than the single village that became publicized). If we'd had the same sort of deranged leaders that Germany had we'd have had the same murdering bastards coming out of nowhere slaughtering civilians and pow's at will. I'm not defending what was done; but urinating on someone who's willing to speak about it isn't the answer.

The deaths of fifty or sixty million people all those years ago was not your personal outrage. It was an outrage to the entire world. Including the German people.

And where did anyone ever say this guy had to prove his personal courage to you or anyone else? Where did he do any personal boasting? What he said was he fought for his country and he's proud of it. He repudiated the nazis and Hitler and their works. What's the issue?

As for Emil having to answer whether or not Germany backs the U. S. in Iraq -- do you have inside info that he's a political leader! What the hell has that got to do with any of this?

What you seem to be looking for is some after the fact kicking in the nuts. You don't deserve that sort of gratification. And he doesn't deserve to have it inflicted upon him. Certainly not because your father had young friends of his get killed by Germans. It was war and the Germans were the ones shooting at them. They served their country and were killed and we all owe them something that can never be repaid.

This rah-rah-rah we were right and you were wrong rhetoric isn't doing anything to honor them. Your giving yourself a soapbox to stand on. And the message is -- what?

Using your reasoning I should be seeking the death or punishment of every man, woman and child in Vietnam -- or is that also part of the agenda?

My father was also in WW II. He never spoke about it and I never asked him. Whenever the conversation came up he folded his arms and looked off and left the room at the first opportunity. The same for my several uncles who also served. One was shot up so badly in the Ardennes that he was bent up for the rest of his life. Yet, to his dying day neither he nor my father nor any of the others ever had anything derogotory to say about either the Germans or the German people. Like your father, if they spoke about them at all it was to say how brave they were.

The occasional story was always a humorous one and never involved combat. My only surviving uncle, a motorcycle courier like the real Emil Siebold, took every opportunity to curse the U. S. Government for making pay for the motorcycle he'd lost on a muddy quagmire that was supposed to be a road. Another of his stories was about seeing Patton being photographed in full regalia on some road in France pointing West because it looked good for the cameras when the fighting was actually to the East. He added that when he started his motorcycle Patton turned and saw him and winked playfully as though in explanation and he saluted the general with a chuckle. There's no doubt in my mind he also saw his share of horrors, but the war he talked about was pretty much confined to those two episodes.

One of the others, when I was around ten, told me --out of the clear blue-- that when he was in Germany he saw kids my age shooting weapons and being killed. Then he added, and I can still hear him saying it, "I hope that never happens here." He died thirty years later and it was the only time I heard him say it.

If these guys, who had also lived through the Depression and other bad times, were that shaken by what they'd seen in Europe, it had to have been many times worse for anyone actually growing up there and living through all of it. I wouldn't want to spend a single day of my life living under Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin -- why not show a little understanding for people who were forced to grow up in that sort of hell.

[ December 18, 2002, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by sogard:

Germany is democratic and stable today.

Yes it is and yes they are. Just because they do not support the USA's latest inane Crusade doesn't make them any less so.

Perhaps... even MORE Democratic and stable than many are the meek & stuporous who will side with the Bully for fear of getting mean-minded pay-back, yes?

As for the German people, they are just about like anyone else in the world entire. Some are saints, some are sinners, and most are situated somewhere in between.

I lived among them for almost 4 years and can vouch for their... normalcy in that regard. One needs to be very careful (... that little issue about -- "judge not lest yee be," etc) about ignorant accusations, for old reasons made new, or new reasons become bitterly old... ad nauseum. :eek:

PS: The Devil the Demon arrives in many disguises, and it's a MOST unusual fellow who can KNOW where & when and who that might be, yes?

[ December 18, 2002, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

[DeGaule]

Fellows.

JerseyJohn is right !

The fact that this man has a signature that really

can make most other people's blood boil is quite beside the point. He is entitle to his views and certainly as almost any other soldier of any other country he also has every right to feel some pride at having served his country and having survived this terrible war.

The fact that he was serving a Vile Regime that will most probably forever mark the german nation with a black mark is irrelevant.

If we condemn in in our forum for that , then we will have to do it for every Frenchmen too because of what the French army did in its numerous colonial conflicts or every canadian for the numerous execution of "escaping prisonner" that took place during the liberation of France and the Low Countries...or every american for the well documented Vietnam era atrocities...and so on and so forth...It will never end.

Ill probably never be able to like this man,and Ill certainly never like what he at one time defended. Ive lost family in Dieppe and in the Pacific. But its not in me to "Flame Him" for that he is no more responsable for his country,s act then we are for ours.

Lets all agree to finish this thing now...In the spirit of Christmas Ill even try to start liking Rambo too

[jmbunnelle]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

SeaWolf_48

As for Emil having to answer whether or not Germany backs the U. S. in Iraq -- do you have inside info that he's a political leader! What the hell has that got to do with any of this?

This rah-rah-rah we were right and you were wrong rhetoric isn't doing anything to honor them. Your giving yourself a soapbox to stand on. And the message is -- what?

Yes, it's a wee bit late for the right/wrong debate. Every lesson that could be learned from the events has been learned (or not, in the case of the U.S.)

Originally posted by SeaWolf_48:

...not to mention a great culture, with programs like "Dallas" with JR, and Baywatch (Ha Ha).

Yes, Hans Fallada, Heinrich Mann, et.al. would be . . . uh . . . amazed.

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />As originally posted by sogard:

Germany is democratic and stable today.

Yes it is and yes they are. Just because they do not support the USA's latest inane Crusade doesn't make them any less so.

Perhaps... even MORE Democratic and stable than many are the meek & stuporous who will side with the Bully for fear of getting mean-minded pay-back, yes?

</font>

[Moon]

Moving this to the General Discussion Forum. And, to be honest, I'll keep watching this. Like the other thread referenced in the first post it's destined to be locked up as soon as the heat rises just one °F... keep it civilized, or drop it. This is pretty heavy stuff for a game forum...

Martin